Sexuality and NPCs

I feel like it might be best to keep author’s authority out of the discussion.
Yes, authors are free to write their games however they want, for better or worse, including writing for a limited sexuality. They can do whatever they want, and they don’t need any ‘better’ reason for their choices than that that is what they want to write.

But most writers, and especially the ones that participate in other parts of this forum than just their own WIP threads, are interested in making their games available to as broad an audience as possible, and make potential readers feel welcomed by their fiction. If they aren’t, there really is no reason to seek out others’ perspectives.

And the question of whether having monosexual ROs is inherently better than having only bi/pan ROs, is rather complex. Which means we risk people talking past each other, because they are really talking about completely different things, and not really replying to each others actual points.

If we remove the issue about author authority, and push all the issues about ‘playersexual’ (that’s a whole can of worms on it’s own) to the side, along with all the historical biphobia and bi-erasure that muddies the waters, I believe we can boil the topic down to two major points.

  • Should the default RO sexuality be bisexual, instead of hetero-sexual, as has traditionally been the case (and still is in many cases. Looking at you, Rogue Trader, with great disappointment.) As in, should the usual ‘ROs are hetero unless there’s a reason for them to be queer’ be changed to ‘ROs are bisexual unless there is a reason for them to be monosexual’.
  • Is queer representation better served by broader representation, and having more choices available for queer people (everyone is bi), so there is a higher chance of everyone feeling like they have an actual choice and don’t have to settle for whatever is available to them. Or by having more specific representation, by having monosexual ROs who represent specific experiences, even though this might limit the amount of choices available to each player.

For me, personally, the answer to the first point is a resounding YES.
The second point is again more complex, but I think I generally fall on the side of players having more choice, of having most if not all ROs be bi/pan. The more specific representation for ROs can be done in games that target that demographic specifically, like the many sapphic Heart’s Choice games. In games that are for a more general audience, it makes sense to have ROs be available to everyone, and then have a lot of non-RO NPCs be monosexual, and show that representation there.
Of course, if you have a lot of ROs, you can more easily have monosexual ROs, and still give everyone a lot of choice. But that is a whole lot of work.
I generally love when games have a lot of very specific content, that only a minority of readers will ever actually see. Or paths that are exclusive to each other. It’s awesome, it adds a lot of replay value. But it should not come at the cost of readers feeling like their choices are unfairly limited.

(I see that my point about non-RO representation was ninjaed, and much better elaborated on, by @HarrisPS )

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I enjoy some stereotypes. I enjoy Depraved Bisexual, Agent Peacock or If It’s you It’s Okay.
It’s always a little strange to see people talk about avoiding these, as if I, a bisexual, should be thanking them for a “better representation” :rofl: (Patrick Weekes, I will get you).
Not every piece of media should be sanitized for ‘good moral lessons’. A flawless representation is already something that is and will be present in the mainstream, the indie is just ahead.
Subversions of stereotypes or discussion of stereotypes is also impossible without including them.

I think most of us don’t always want to be preached at and know the audience doesn’t always want that either. Sometimes you just want to have fun with a cast of colourful characters that are allowed to be flawed and problematic.

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My problem which these is that I want to play as them, but the games pretty much never lets me. :sweat_smile: :laughing:
And it’s annoying when NPCs get to be like that, and my MC doesn’t.

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Well, as almost always it comes down to if a) the execution is good or bad and b) what the author‘s intent was.
I think most people (especially people of the community the trope affects) will be very quickly able to tell if it was done in good or bad faith.

One example that affects me directly:

The ace character that is ace because of past (sexual) trauma is a common trope and usually regarded as harmful and better off avoided. However, ace people with past (sexual) trauma exist — I am one of them—and need to spend a lot of time (and therapy) reflecting how much of their „ace-ness“ ist because of them…simply being ace, an intrinsic part of their identity, … and how much is trauma response.
The end result will be very different for each individual — for me, I found that I moved more towards the allo side of the spectrum the more I started to heal. I started as sex-repulsed, I am now comfortably sex-positiv demisexual. I know I am ace and would have been ace either way even if certain things hadn‘t happened. Getting there wasn‘t easy.

I would love to see a story like that mirrored in fiction (or any other media), especially without people shutting it down early for perpetuating a trope/stereotype.
But, again, one would be very easily able to tell if someone wrote this story because they wanted to explore that topic, or because of personal experience, etc — or because they unthinkingly replicated the only kind of ace characters they know of.

btw: not a native english speaker so I don‘t know the difference between „affects“ and „effects“ and can‘t be bothered to look it up, at the moment. So I‘m sorry if I used the wrong one.

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You got it right. Affect is usually a verb, so the way I remember it is that Affect is an Action.

English being English, it can be nouned(“She speaks with a flat affect”), and effect, which is normally a noun, can be verbed(“They want to effect change in the government”), but remembering that affect is an action will generally steer you right.

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I’ve figured that affect causes effect, but I’m not a native English-speaker either.

It was both tied together. Some people wanted Neia to represent a sapphic lesbian RO, and felt that changing her to bi lost that. Which to me is just such a perfect encapsulation of why so many bi people don’t feel like a real part of the LGBTQ+ community or feel comfortable in those spaces. Bi’s aren’t straight enough for the straights and aren’t gay enough for the gays as the saying goes and it’s absurd. I a bi man am just as fucking gay as the gay who only likes cock, the fact that I like women as well doesn’t somehow negate that, it’s not some debuff to my gay stat. Even if I’m not in gay relationship even if I have more preference towards women, I remain just as gay, because at the end of the day I still like fucking dudes too. And if I were in a relationship with another man it would just as fucking gay as two gay men in a relationship and be just as much of a representation of a gay relationship. So, circling back to Neia the whole situation is absurd, because bi Neia still loves fucking women and still has predominantly if not exclusively fucked women, nothing about that changes, all that changes is that it turns out maybe she likes fucking men too and that doesn’t make her less sapphic or less lesbian, and it doesn’t make her romance less representative of a lesbian relationship if your character is a women and to say otherwise is fucking ridiculous.

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Uh…being bisexual doesn’t make a bi woman less gay or less sapphic, but it does make her not a lesbian. Lesbians have their own unique experiences with queerness, just like bi women have their own unique experience with queerness. The idea that lesbians existing and having unique experiences we would like to see represented in media is somehow biphobic is incredibly bigoted.

Just like you describe your bisexuality as existing outside of your relationships, lesbianism also exists outside of our relationships.

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it wouldn’t make her a Lesbian though, since lesbian don’t sleep with mens.

Therefor, a Bi person can’t really represent a lesbian now…

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Isn’t there a long historic tradition for the word ‘lesbian’ including bisexual women, even if the modern term is generally used more narrowly?
I have definitely seen a lot of discourse about the topic in other queer spaces, and there doesn’t seem to be a clear consensus on whether ‘bi lesbian’ is a thing or not. Especially with biromantic homosexuals and homoromantic bisexuals also existing.

But I don’t personally have a horse in the race, and I don’t know if this is the right place to start that discourse again.
I’m sure we can all agree that there are many different queer experiences, even within a single identity, and we shouldn’t generalize any of them too much, or claim that any of them are universal for everyone of that identity.

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Because Sappho wrote about men as well, ‘sapphic’ and ‘lesbian’ could include bisexuals, it’s just not often used that way. It still still means women who feel exclusive attraction to other women.
But I also don’t want to make this a discussion about how narrowly sexualities can be defined or which word we should use to mean what.
However, I wouldn’t define a lesbian as “a woman who doesn’t fuck men” - I think that would exclude a lot of women who identify with that label but for one reason or another had relations with opposite sex. A lesbian is a woman who says she is one.

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Eh, translation from older languages are iffy on that kind of detail at best for obvious reasons but generally it’s agreed they translate better to the modern ‘Gay’ rather than specifically ‘lesbian’.

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The quote you posted acknowledges this, so I am not sure why you quoted me.

Changing the npc to any other orientation, changes the representation of that character, no two ways about it because it changes who that character represents.

The gaming industry, including this very community, has a history of standing up for gay and queer men representation and insisting that this representation is important enough to both acknowledge and fight for.

Examples just in this community are Steel(Chen) from Malin’s series and Tommy from JimD’s series. When this same exact scenario occurred for both of these npc characters, the community stood firm and proud.

The same cannot be said for lesbian npc characters, until this one.

In addition, the authorial intent about this npc was to write her as lesbian with this fact being essential to her identity, not just sexuality.

This is, I feel, critical to the issue of representation and why it trumps the orientation debate.

The character, as per the author’s admitted intent, was meant to represent those who were never orientated towards men. This represents women who never were nor will be orientated to men.

Despite your assurances otherwise, changing this very fundamental element of this particular npc, does change representation in the story. This is immutable fact.

With all of this said, representation of bi-people is important as well! Just not at the expense of representing others.

I, and those in my social circle who I spoke to about this, believe that Ana should keep both the pirate and this character who they are and introduce new bi character representation into her story, if she felt the need to do so.

As an author, this is more work, more effort and more time. Yet, if representation is critical to you, as the author, then the work, effort, and time is going all in on that commitment.

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Which to add she did with Vallen

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AND her other ROs are canonically bi/pan with their bisexuality/pansexuality being part of their romance route. So there‘s good actual bi rep there already too.

So I guess for equality reasons next in this hypothetical line should be a gay male RO^^

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Semantics, both sapphic and lesbian refer to women attracted to other women, neither term is inherently exclusive to women attracted only to other women. Yes sometimes Lesbian can and is used that way but it depends on the context as it does not always mean that. Hence in my post I am using lesbian in the broad sense solely for emphasis so the distinction is irrelevant. Also just to be snarky I’m gonna link half dozen sources to prove my point that it can mean both.

Links

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lesbian
https://www.vanderbilt.edu/lgbtqi/resources/definitions
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/lesbian
https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms
https://gaycenter.org/community/lgbtq/
https://glaad.org/reference/terms
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-gay-lesbian-identities/
https://lgbtqia.fandom.com/wiki/Lesbian

Absolutely correct but I didn’t say otherwise in my original post, I do however think that statement is discounting the overwhelming similarities bi people share with gays or lesbians and the fact that largely yes I can relate too and feel represented by gays or lesbians in media even if it isn’t exactly the same. But all of this is irrelevant to my post and to Neia.

Ah so here’s the disconnect we are talking about different things. Lesbian or gay representation in media isn’t biphobic at all but I never said that in the first place. Broadly I make points about bi-erasure but that is in the context of Neia and people who would discount her queerness for the simple fact that if made bi she would also like men. Nothing else about her past or experiences would’ve changed and yet so many people acted as though she had been turned into just another straight RO with all the sapphic queerness gone. Like really everything else the same what actually is the tenable difference here? That isn’t rhetorical I don’t see the difference at least not for Neia. This isn’t always true of course sometimes yes there would be a difference, making a character like Chen from Fallen Hero (hopefully you get this reference) bi would require tenably changing him, he would not be the same. Neia isn’t and was never like that yes her sexuality is apart of her but it also isn’t really important for her character in the same way. If anything she makes far more sense as bi because she fucks women because of a loophole, the church technically forbids intercourse for their members but the rules as written didn’t apply if it was two women hence she can fuck while all the priests have to play celibate. Like tell me her being bi doesn’t make sense, a person leaving a repressive cult where sex wasn’t allowed or sex with men at any rate coming to the conclusion that actually they like more than just that one gender. People make Neia being lesbian out as an integral part of her character when it never was, she just likes to fuck women, whether lesbian or bi that doesn’t change, so being queer I suppose is integral but being lesbian isn’t and never was.

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The difference is semantic in this instance, see my first point of this reply to see why.

I’ll be honest I wasn’t really replying to you so much as I wanted to talk about the Neia situation and that seemed a reasonable excuse to do so.

Hmmm does it though? Every time a book adaptation has a white character who ends up being played by a non white actor you see that same argument, but people discount it. They discount it, rightly so because ultimately for these characters their race was a part of them sure but never important, and changing it presents something that is normal (diversity) as normal, yes characters where it does matter exist but not every character is or should be like that, it’s good to see things that should be considered normal presented as such.

All of that is pretty much exactly the same for sexuality and gender, yes for some characters like Chen it is an important part of who they are and it is good that characters like him exist and seeing more characters like him exist across the LGBTQ+ spectrum would be great. But not every LGBTQ+ character is like him and they shouldn’t be. Because if every representation is like that it stops being a good thing and starts becoming a freak show with a positive spin for all the straights to come peer into the mind of a queer. When the reality is Queers are just normal people and a normal part of life and always have been and not every queer character needs some tragic story or their coming to terms with queerness being a massive part of their life, they just exist and they are queer because they are and sure it is apart of that person but it isn’t all of them nor need it define them, or be a basis for their identity.

This isn’t true Neia’s character was never centered around her being lesbian, she just was one because she both liked to and could fuck women, nothing more. She wasn’t Chen she was just a character who happened to gay there wasn’t anything more to it and there doesn’t need to be. Not every LGBT character is or should be like Chen, They can just exist and also happen to be queer and that is okay.

If being Lesbian was important to Neia I’d absolutely agree and hell probably if this were about a regular book and not interactive fiction I’d agree. But it’s not important to Neia and not a regular book, and there is a tangible benefit to making her and the pirate king bi because it lets more people comfortably experience those characters and their story’s which is the whole point of IF. Like yes with Chen that comes at the expensive of the character so it shouldn’t be done but it doesn’t with Neia or the pirate king. So truly what is a tangible negative to making them bi and allowing more people to enjoy them besides the ephemeral representation that was never important to either of them in the first place? And does that negative if there is one outweigh the benefit of letting more people experience them? All things equal yes they should stay the way they were but things aren’t equal.

For absolute clarity I am not arguing Ana should change Neia or the pirate king I think there is a benefit to making them bi but also people have grown attached to them as they are so eh, Ana should do what they want. What I am arguing is that the people who got really upset when Ana mentioned she was considering this and acted as though Neia making Neia bi was straightwashing her, and made Ana presumably given they apologized feel as though they had done something wrong or that even considering changing Neia or the pirate king was wrong to do, are being absurd, and it’s fucking ludicrous to suggest Neia being bi makes her less sapphic and gay and less representative of that.

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You are wrong. Ana states her intent on her Tumblr:

I’m bowing out of this particular discussion going forward. Next time, please do not use me as an excuse. Thanks.

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This is my exact point Neia is lesbian because she likes to fuck women, it is a part of her but not an important aspect of her character in the way being gay is for Chen (I’m sorry for using him as an example so much) but it was never a defining feature she just was lesbian, but her being lesbian was never important and I literally explained why in my reply. But for further evidence here is Ana’s original tumblr post or at least the relevant bit:

Tumblr Post

The other point I wanted to discuss is the sexuality lock of Neia and The Pirate’s romances. I had my reasons for these, but the more I objectively think about it, the more I realize the locks don’t really have an impact on the game — or even the character’s arcs. Both Neia and the Pirate have a goal that you can encourage or try to dissuade, but in neither of those is their sexuality important.

I’m playing Baldur’s Gate 3 right now — a spectacular game. It has overthrown Origins as my favorite game of all time — and I’ll be honest: If I couldn’t have romanced Astarion as a woman, I would have been heartbroken. Not even kidding.

It got me thinking of my own game. Why limit the player in this way when the plot around your gender isn’t significant? If I was writing a story where their sexuality matter — like Dorian from Inquisition — then, of course, I’d keep them as they are. But, as it is, it just feels… hollow. I can’t continue to justify my decision.

So, as of now, unless I get some serious arguments for the contrary (I’m very much open to feedback on this decision), Neia and the Pirate will be bisexual, and all the cast will be available for both genders. Their romances, like Hadrian and Alessa’s, will be different depending on your gender but they fall for you in the same way.

Book One will have an update once I’m done writing the first arc of Book Two, and I’m planning to add the option to begin a romance with Neia and the Pirate as a male Romanus. I have to think a bit about how to do it — again, I want to make the two versions of the romance unique.

I’m afraid I don’t understand the logical steps here. Perhaps it is because I’m not super familiar with the character, but I had the impression that Chen was thoughtfully portrayed and wasn’t presented as a “positive spin”. The idea that monosexual gay characters = “a freak show […] for all the straights” doesn’t make sense to me at all.

This is true - but it isn’t a reason not to put lesbian and gay characters in games, whether or not they exist in a tolerant setting or have happy lives. A bisexual character can have a tragic story/coming to terms with their queerness, or “just exist”, just as a gay character can.

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I think many of the arguments here mirror the differing views in the greater lgbtq community. I’m old; both lesbian and sapphic were/are something used for bisexual women as well when I got into things, it was just another word for liking women. And then the whole exclusionary movement started, and some people wanted pure boxes for every single orientation. See also the “queer” debate, bi vs pan, he/him lesbians, and the various discussions about how “transness” can be discussed and lived. Real life can be very different from online life, and people’s definitions vary with their community and age.

In short, there is no single answer that everyone in the community agrees is right, words are mutable, and please be kind to each other. We’re not gonna solve this on an interactive fiction board.

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