I wasn’t referring to you or to AotC, which is an unusual case because it’s adapting the story beats of a famous historical couple (Henry 8 and Anne Boleyn) into a choice game.
I’ve conceded before and still agree that the “pick you up” bit is a misstep – the monarch doesn’t need to have that big a physical strength differential with a character of either sex – as is any typo (long since fixed, I think) where the MC reflects that tea parties make them feel like a little girl again, regardless of MC sex.
Most gripes I see aren’t about anything that substantive. Just about stereotypes.
I’m just amazed at how a conversation that died down awhile ago can bring up this much traction, it’s quite funny.
Also, relating to the topic, I honestly don’t mind the RO’s sexualities, there isn’t any harm in making them player-sexual, it pleases the crowds and grudgingly makes everybody happy. I get the point of representation of gay people and such, it’s a truly amazing thing to see. Though, it’s very dangerous grounds to walk upon, for story-telling and generally appealing the mases, Depending upon the reader, it might make the story better OR the story a tad worse.
It always just results in the reader preference, as a straight guy (Yeah, straight moment) I don’t mind seeing gay characters and such, probably if you aren’t gonna romance a character presented in the story, you should make them start a romance with a side-character and expand upon that; that’d be cool.
Anyways, yeah that’s my foolish take
I’m always happy when a bisexual character is bisexual independently of who they are dating in IFs. A lot of games are written in this gender/sexuality blind way on purpose because it’s in the COG mission statement to let everyone experience stress-free (free from homophobia, sexism or gender aside from pronoun choice) narratives - that’s not what I’m always in mood for but I get it.
That later passed on HG and HG has a lot more room to play with representation but the IF audience seems to consist mostly of people who like escapism done this way.
Honestly, I don’t mind people that are available for all MCs and have locks that are defined by choices and personality, not by gender.
Being bisexual myself, I’ve always had a very free approach towards gender of my partners and I don’t think you have to date equal amount of different genders or specify the lean to count as bi. If you like people regardless of gender, you’re bi. Even if the term is never used and the character doesn’t have past partners mentioned, they’re bi if they’re available for characters of different genders.
So I hope you don’t mind but I just wanted to give a quick recommendation. To you, or to anyone else who reads this.
I know it’s not the same, because let’s face it, there’s only one Neia in the world, no one will ever be as good as her, but if you like women like Neia, you may want to look into Camellia from Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. She’s just She’s also heterosexual so I have no chance… or patience to play as male character for so many hours just to experience her romance arc. But I’m happy to announce we’ve become sisters instead. Def recommend WotR and Camellia for (straight) Neia lovers! Kay, I’m shutting up now, don’t ban me for straying off topic please
Off-topic, but Toybox lets you romance characters that are genderlocked. Haven’t used this one myself and it doesn’t change the text, but it’s a pretty cool feature if you, like me, are hailing from Bioware trenches.
Oh, bisexuality — like most things— exist on a spectrum and my personal experience will be different from yours will be different from someone else‘s, of course. And I definitely don‘t ever want to gatekeep who is „allowed“ to call themselves bi, though I also don‘t think that‘s what I did.
I‘ve heard the terms „gender indifferent“ and „gender conscious“ used to describe the different kinds of bi-/pansexuality. It seems you are gender indifferent, I am gender conscious. Both are equally bi
But yes, this is getting very theoretical and belongs in another thread.
To be honest, for me bisexuality is something inherent, something that isn’t really defined by which gender and in which proportion you date. It’s attraction, desire, emotion - if you feel it towards anyone without concerns about gender, it’s bi for me.
That’s why I don’t really understand the need to make sure bisexual characters date people in equal proportions and amounts to “count” as bi.
Someone could not date their own sex for their entire life (safety reasons, preferences, desire to not be kicked out of the house like yours truly, not wanting to deal with homophobic laws), yet if they’re available for MC without gender restrictions they’re still bi to me. I don’t really get how representation works, it’s an entirely foreign concept to me, but still, I don’t think that orientation should be quantified and judged by quantities and proportions.
While that’s all valid, we should draw the line between talking about people and talking about characters.
People are born, characters are made - and if a character is never shown to be any other sexuality on screen they will then be assumed to be whatever the viewer wants them to be.
And some people prefer that about playersexuality - to be able to say “for me this character is gay” or “straight”.
But that’s why we distinguish between playersexual and bisexual. Playersexuality is a blank slate (unless the game changes the sexuality of the RO based on PC’s gender).
Mhm. I‘m a bit puzzled, to be honest, maybe you can help me out here. You‘ve mentioned this ‚quantification‘ in both your posts now. Is this in response to something you have heard a lot or is it in response to something I or someone else here said? Because I don‘t think that anyone has proposed that characters would have to have an equal amount of different-gendered partners (or any previous partners for that matter) to count as bi.
I see your argument that (if I understand correctly) the distinction between player sexual and bi is an unnecessary one for you, I just want to make sure we are actually responding to each other.
And yes, that is true. Characters, including their sexuality and gender identity, have been outlined and created by someone and there is reason behind it — not always well thought out, or thought through, and sometimes just based on feeling like it in the moment.
And yes, from my limited experience, I‘ve seen „playersexual“ used as people will not have to encounter queerness ever unless they are queer themselves, to not be wary of it. Note that this applies not just to IF but media in general (especially big RPGs or movies that need to keep queerness so limited that in can be edited out for less accepting audiences).
Mhm. I remember a lot of arguments in Bioware game fandoms where characters were often stated as gay or straight, completely ignoring the fact they’re bisexual in canon.
It reached really ugly levels with Anders since he only mentioned Carl to male Hawke, and based on that people said that he lied, he never liked women in Awakening / that he lied about his relationships with Carl and is actually straight, that’s why he doesn’t tell that to female Hawke.
It always read as bullshit to me because it’s still obvious he dated both, but it’s not only Bioware trenches.
It seems to me that there’s a certain expectation for bisexual characters to be a player, to date in equal quantities to count as bi, and even then it’s often ignored. And this leads to bisexual characters often being written as rogues with tragic pasts (Bioware trenches, again) and unsavoury characters because their bisexuality is tied with promiscuity. There’s been a turn for the better in this regard, but if you look at Rogue Trader’s romance spread, you’ll see the familiar case: bisexual options are rogues and, in one case, a psycho that likes making people suffer and wears human skin, straight ones are all far more proper.
Like, for me it feels like there’s no need to quantity the partners and make sure bi characters date an equal amount. They’re all bisexual, there can be so much more than the archetype that I’m used to seeing so much in media.
Oh, now I understand it better. Yes, all these things that you describe are very, very, very, …, common tropes regarding bisexuality — common and persistent. And the urge of some people to classify bi people as either straight or gay depending on the people they are with is sadly also very common (for example: Song of Achilles erasing the bisexuality of both LIs and marketing it as ‚gay‘ —among many, many other issues I have with that book. Or heartstopper (which I haven‘t read) marketed as gay even though one of the protagonists is bi — which is something repeatedly stressed in the comics but ignored completely by many fans talking about it).
But doesn‘t this serve my point, in a way? That no matter how a character‘s bisexuality is defined, they are and will be bisexual. A point not made if all the experiences and emotions (that we are now sharing) are removed from them completely. This has nothing to do if they or who they have dated previously (especially as aro-ace bi people also exist).
To be honest, despite my dislike for gender-blind writing, I can definitely see the merits of it. For me orientation is something that is about as defined as bone structure and blood type, and just like those isn’t something you really choose yourself.
Personally I prefer it when romances focus a lot more on characters than on orientations, and in some worlds and settings we’ve already reached the place I so desire - place, where orientation is just as normal as your colour of eyes and thus not something to even think about. It’s enough to add some subtle brush strokes with “yes, character A is attracted to character B and dated character C in the past” or something less to make a character bi.
Because for me the romance is the emotion. Not the gender of my partner, but their person and character. It doesn’t change because of gender and I doubt it should. So for me bisexual and playersexual characters work best with mentions about their attraction to different people, but not to the point it overtakes their personality. I don’t feel any different when I’m attracted to a woman, I mostly think “best to keep it to myself, don’t want any trouble”.
I was born bi and it should be something that’s considered the norm. I’ve never really got the pride traditions and LGBT culture in the west because ours (Russian) is a lot more subdued and… heavily influenced by the circumstances of living there. They do have nice pins, though.
Mhm. Yes, worrying about good/bad representation is a privileged position in and of itself, true. If your environment responds to queerness… (let‘s call it ‚very badly‘, even though we both now that is a euphemism), then this discussion might seem absurd to you, in a way. People in many western cultures have over time won certain battles that people in many eastern cultures are still fighting. That doesn‘t mean that the struggle is over for anyone, though. And yes, we all want to reach a point where one‘s sexuality, or gender identity, etc are seen as just another thing about you. It‘s still a long way to go, though
And these subtle strokes, as you called them, would absolutely be a simple, quick way to cement a character‘s bisexuality within the narrative. Especially if romance is not the focus of one‘s game this is a good solution to the whole player-sexual/bi conundrum.
I think, in fact we agree, we just haven‘t realised it.
I also don‘t mind if authors write player sexual characters — I only mind if they are referred to as bi (and vice versa) — as stated previously.
And oooh boy, I just looked at Rogue Trader‘s roster and this is very bad. So bad that I don‘t think I will want to play it. Even worse is one news article about the issue I saw. But then again, Owlcat has had issues in the past with their queer rep. And they don‘t seem to be willing to listen too.
Well, we differ here. I hope there’s an appetite for characters who aren’t just meant to be likeable - who are allowed to be morally reprehensible and don’t have to be changed to count as “good bisexuals”.
I like my depraved bisexuals and villains and they should be allowed to exist. In this political climate, it’s easy to fall into the trap of sanitizing characters that are meant to be “for the community” and I find that so dull personally.
Minorities that are villains, antiheroes and heroes can exist and be interesting characters with something to say, there’s space. We gained some of the best characters that way.
To be honest, I’m used to never expect anything good from any game studio. You get a good game, it’s like winning a raffle. You get a bad game, you mutter “what did I bloody expect” and move on.
I am known as one of the few people that unironically enjoyed Jun’s romance and eagerly await for his arc to continue. For me it’s the question of, well, effort - if you remove genderlock, you, in my opinion, save effort and potentially your ass.
If you do genderlock, it’s usually nice to give people more options than one (1) if they want to engage in romance and try not to fall into Bioware pitfalls with their Dragon Age bi characters. In that case that’s even worse. I love Marazhai dearly, he’s my type of crazy, but him being one (1) available male option for male RT is kinda cringe in my opinion and reeks of effort applied in a wrong field.
For me effort in terms of orientation severely hinges on a character in question and setting. Let’s say we set the game in the grim dankness of space where there’s endless war and gay romances mentioned that some fan translators here try to scrub out (assholes). Would character’s orientation really matter if there’s no sexism and gender roles? If expectations are more hoisted upon a person based on their station, not their gender?
For me it makes no sense to bother with genderlocked romances in Warhammer. It’s easier to deal with accusations of playersexuality than with accusations in a style of “hey, why is your only male bisexual literally a creature that feeds off suffering of other people and tortures them daily?”.
Sure, I don‘t need my queer characters to be little angels whatsoever. If the ONLY option you get though is a someone whose people make furniture out of people while they are still alive then that is not a good look. ESPECIALLY if the excuse given by the devs is time constrained and limited resources. If gay men are being told: ‚we could only give you another option if we had more crunch and you don‘t want more crunch, do you?‘ that just doesn‘t seem like they tried very hard. Especially as coding wise having a characters be gender-limited takes more time than not including that variable.
I actually like set sexualities for NPCs but the one thing I don’t like is that usually means as far as ROs go, I as a gay man have far less choice than most.
What I see so many time with games with set sexualities is 70-90% of them are straight, which makes things far less fun.
I dont mind set preferences as long as there is at least combos of preferences. If its hetero only, most likely won’t, 98% of the time. I also ignore men as protags, 100%.
Story and characters matter as well. The Forgotten One is prime example because i was engaged with the mental awareness alone and its struggles being to real with me.
She’s also heterosexual so I have no chance… or patience to play as male character for so many hours just to experience her romance arc. But I’m happy to announce we’ve become sisters instead. Def recommend WotR and Camellia for (straight) Neia lovers! Kay, I’m shutting up now, don’t ban me for straying off topic please