Romanceable NPCs with one another?

Because Astrid picks the MC over him. This isn’t me saying that Astrid likes being with the MC better than with Leon, it’s HER doing it. SHE’s the one valuing the MC higher than Leon. I actually don’t have any strong feelings about Leon, one way or the other. :man_shrugging:

I mean, you shouldn’t kid on this. It’s actually true. Being close to the Keeper is definitely dangerous, unless you’re Seraphina or Katia, whose only chance of a half-way decent life (i.e., one where they aren’t slaves) rests with the Keeper. And Astrid still rather be with the Keeper, because that relationship is worth the risk. Pain is the price we pay for joy, and all that.

You used an @ here, which suggests to me that you want her to be notified, though I’m not sure, so I’m going to point out that the username has an underscore in case you want that.

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No, I just use the @ to find someones name, because it can be hard getting all the signs in someones name correctly. (And I don´t like talking about people without them knowing it.).

Edit. No I lied. I did want to add them, because I really do not like talking about someone if they don´t know we are talking about them. I always add people when I talk about them, because not doing so makes me uncomfortable and for some reason the “I” went messing. I am going to correct that now.

And to to back to topic:

There is one crucial difference I think you keep missing. It is not about being the RO first choice. It is about being their best and/or most chosen choice. That is why we are discussing canon, even such a thing is kind of absurd in ifs.

Because something can feel more canon than not. Even if that is objectively not true.

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Debate

Or maybe we’ve just somehow moved from a relativistic few decades, where it was more common to assume that there were good things to be said for all sides of a given argument, to a polarized, judgmental culture where trying to see the validity in perspectives you don’t share is treated as an intellectual and moral weakness. :slight_smile:

Plenty of battles do have to be fought, not bothsidesed. There are good reasons our culture has shifted away from cozy relativism and picked up versions of the old puritan/ crusading/ inquisitorial tools again. But applying that mindset to interpretations of choose-your-own-adventure books? I mean, in fiction, usually there really is something to be said for both sides. (For arguments that real people actually have. I’ve never heard anyone argue that LotR is pro-factory, and I’ll bet you haven’t either.)

When all the strawmen are lying dead round the back, we can get back to the ideas actually being shared on the thread. I mostly share your opinions and ways of reading… but mistaking opinion for fact is an intellectual sin at least as serious as treating all opinions as equally true.

One foundational idea you keep coming back to is that the characters in one playthrough are simply different from the characters you’d meet in another, that horny NPCs B and C “are not the same B and C from the playthrough where you’re romancing B.” That’s a totally plausible way of reading IF, where each new reading creates its own new self-contained universe with new characters… but it’s not the only “objective” or factual way.

And I’m not sure anyone actually does it consistently, whether as a reader or a writer. It happens to be my way of reading romances in games, too – but it’s not how I naturally read all aspects of IF. If I uncover secret evidence that B is a psychotic murderer, I’m probably going to take that as an important fact for the character across all playthroughs, and be disoriented (if not annoyed) if on another readthrough B turns out to be a kindly soul who’s supposed to be my best friend. If I find that whether I choose to walk east or west, I end up outside the same house, I’m going to feel railroaded; I won’t shrug it off because each readthrough creates a new and independent universe.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the inconsistent experience I just described. I could probably come up with a detailed justification for it if I wanted to – a reason why in some cases it feels right to me to treat different readthroughs as explorations of a single universe/character, and in other cases it feels right to treat them as new, alternate universes/characters that don’t inform each other. But that probably wouldn’t be adequate to explain the other inconsistencies in my experience of IF… for example why I sometimes enjoy and am sometimes annoyed by being given the choice to determine something in the gameworld that the character would in reality have no power over.

At the end of the day, I bet that if we dig down in just about anyone’s experience of fiction, we would find similar types of unresolved inconsistency. I think that’s just the nature of something that we inevitably experience as real and not-real at the same time. And I wouldn’t expect to conclude that on this, one person’s inconsistencies are “truer” than someone else’s. With fiction, there just isn’t

Similarly with “who’s the first choice, who’s the second choice” – my instinctive response would be like yours, sure, the MC is the NPC’s first choice. But I also recognize that when we drill down into it, talking about NPC choice at all is problematic. We all know that it’s really the weirdly omnipotent MC who’s being given all the agency here. We have meta-knowledge about ROs and the way a game is going to “offer” them to us, as Chani said.

Personally, my own immersion at this point generally isn’t affected by that meta-knowledge. I don’t feel that the choices an NPC is portrayed as making while not under the influence of the MC-RO vortex of destiny are more authentic, revealing their “real” preferences. But when I read someone else who does react that way under the influence of meta-knowledge, I don’t think they’re objectively wrong to do so. All fiction is experienced in a meta-fictional frame, and how much of that frame we ignore and how much we carry in with us just isn’t an objective, “square-with-three-sides” situation.

Finally on “canon” and authorial intent… saying “the author clearly meant/preferred this” is risky and presumptuous, which is why I’ve been encouraging Chani not to say it. But saying “it feels like the author meant/preferred this” or equivalent is an almost inevitable part of any critical reading… and so many people mean that when they say “canon” that I’d rather engage with what they mean than quibble with their word choice.

Don’t get me wrong: like Malin, I find the whole idea of canon odd and questionable in IF, at least the majority of games where the author has written a bunch of equally valid options. I know some authors like to develop “one true playthrough,” but most don’t. For them I wouldn’t say any single plot train is canon.

At the same time, thinking about criticisms of my own game: I really did put a huge amount more care and craft into the Breden-MC romance than the Breden-NPC romance, and you can get further in Game 1 with your relationship with Breden than with any other RO. Plenty of readers have accused XoR of having one canonical RO as a result.

If by “canon” they meant “explicit authorial intent,” they’d be mistaken. It certainly wasn’t my intent that Breden should be considered the game’s One True Romance, rather than an interesting nexus of early-series plotlines and experiences. But I don’t think they’re using canon that way, because I don’t think they’d drop their criticism if I explained my actual intentions: “You may not have meant to write a canonical romance, but you did anyway.”

I’d call what they’re describing implicit canon. Like “official” canon (and unlike headcanon) it comes from the author, not the reader. Unlike official canon, it may not be something the author explicitly intended, and indeed might be something they’d want to disavow… but the author wrote it anyway, in this case by putting more care and effort and rewards into one plotline/character than another. I think that’s a legitimate critical interpretation of a work, and arguing that the critic shouldn’t use “canon” because only I as author get to decide what’s canon feels both kinda useless and like an evasion of the actual point.

Bringing it back to the NPC-on-NPC action: it seems clear that for some readers who have a strong sense of the MC as their character, the plots an author writes with the other characters can seem like they have more (implicitly) canonical status. Those are the characters that belong to the author, and what the author does with them is more canonical than what the author writes about the MC, who is mostly owned by the reader. That’s not my reading or how I’d be inclined to use the word… but wrong? Nah.

At the end of the day, I’m with Malin that readers can have valid feelings that authors decline to take into consideration – there are too many potential reader-feelings, many of them in direct conflict with each other. But I’m not going to add insult to whatever-level-of-injury-someone-takes-from-a-mobile-game by telling those readers that their desires are invalid or their way of experiencing a game somehow objectively wrong.

Pfffft, as if a one-line aside in a PS to someone else was me arguing with you? They don’t call me Haverstone for nothing. :slight_smile:

You noted that you’re not speaking for all authors here, and I appreciate that. My goal, even as someone writing a story to sell, is to end up with something that I enjoy. If I try instead to take an imagined audience as my main point of reference, I’ll lose focus and energy. There are too many potential audiences out there, all craving different things.

I’m happy to write in community; it’s made my writing better, i.e. more satisfying to me. But I decide what feedback to accept in light of my goal to write something I’m really satisfied with. If I succeed in that goal, I trust it’ll find an adequate audience.

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Sure, which is why I prefaced the whole thing with “Not necessarily on this discussion”.

See, it saddens me to tell you this, because I’m not generally fond of destroying whatever faith in humanity people manage to cling to, but while that LOOKS like a safe bet, I actually ran into a dude in rel life claiming that TLotR is pro-industrialisation because “look at the military might Orthanc managed to amass in secret”.

No, see, if people make multiple playthroughs with multiple characters and want them all to be canon, that IS the only way. The same town of Wayhaven doesn’t have multiple Detectives. The same Astrid hasn’t saved multiple Keepers from a naga after a car crash. So either most of those playthroughs aren’t canon, head or otherwise, at which point the discussion in this entire thread is moot, or they take place in different timelines, in which case those ARE different people. They (almost certainly) don’t differ significantly from each other, but they’re not the same person.

I mean, yes, because these aren’t real people, they’re lines of text and code, so they don’t actually have any agency any more than my laptop has any agency about turning on when I press the power button. They don’t have any choice at all. But I wasn’t the one that brought up the topic of RO-on-RO making people feel like they’re the second choice.

EDIT:

Fun fact: Schrodinger actually proposed the cat thought experiment as a demonstration of how ridiculous the whole thing was.

But I can be moved on this, and easily. Just show me a way in which, say, Wayhaven has multiple Detectives who exist and go through the narrative concurrently.

Light’s funky that way. Is it a particle? Is it a wave? Is it a particle that moves in a wave? How come light’s been surfing all this time?

Fuck it, I’m buying. Here’s to us. Who’s like us? :beers:

image

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I wonder if this discussion haven’t mutated into a larger thing than the original post by now?

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Damn it, Schrodinger, the cat can ONLY be alive or dead. Superposition isn’t a thing. I don’t care what your two-slit experiments show.

OK, I lose that bet. :slight_smile: I owe you a virtual beverage of your choice.

Edit:

What, the one from six years ago? :slight_smile:

Edit edit:

Read the code. :slight_smile: Or read the playthrough while remembering your first one.

Your wavefunction might collapse each time, but others may be surfing it, and upset at features that only appear from that perspective.

Damn few, and all dead. :beer:

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I am going back and forth in my mind on this myself… should the thread be kept open, or has it served its purpose?

  • Thread should stay open
  • Thread should be closed
0 voters

Could also excise some of the more meta talk into it’s own post, it’s super interesting, but I hate derailing.

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I am fine doing that too, I just need a thread title and a suggestion on which posts to move.

Perhaps it might help some people to Not think of a “Canon” way, but just as consequences for choices which are normally thought to be a good Thing, to make choices matter.

So its not the author wanting you to choose this or that, but because you choose not to romance ro1, this as a consequence opens the path where he might date ro2

Its just like, If I kill npc1 they are no longer in the game, just a meaningful consequence.

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Choose YOUR own adventure :slight_smile: As long as it’s possible within the bounds of an IF game, it means it’s coded in there and therefore you can create the canon you most want. The thing about IF is that for malleable story points (which in most cases includes option romance options), there is no single canon. Different choices create different outcomes, same as in real life. It doesn’t really matter what the “author’s preference” was (if they even had one which they often don’t particularly) if there’s an open choice, because it’s your preferred playthrough in the end that’s the one that should matter to you.

Kinda off topic, but I believe Schrodringer had been talking to Einstein apparently who really didn’t like the spooky action at a distance and uncertainty angles of quantum mechanics.

It always amuses me that the EPR paradox was also designed by Einstein and co to illustrate how certain aspects of quantum theory (like entanglement) were flawed, when it actually just kind of shows how it may seem to violate some of our original assumptions in classical physics and is now taught with Schrodringer’s experiment in schools as a thought experiment to demonstrate the idea.

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I think a few factors make up the core of the canon argument.

First, people get emotionally invested in stories. That’s just a fact. A common thread that I see pop up repeatedly is that there’s one aspect about a story that people get REALLY invested in, sometimes over everything else: pairings.

It doesn’t matter what the medium is; it keeps happening:

The Harry Potter fandom erupted in nuclear fire when Half-Blood Prince made Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione canon.

Twilight: are you Team Jacob or Team Edward? (Or think Bella could do way better than those two?)

The Bachelor and The Bachelorette are reality shows that live and breathe who should be with whom.

Naruto, one of the most popular anime/manga series of all time? Arguments whether Sakura should be with Naruto or Sasuke (or that Naruto and Sasuke should be together) have been going on since the series first began.

The critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV with an expanded free trial which you can play through the entire base game and the award-winning 1st expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime?

Thanks to developer and writer encouragement, it’s a thirst trap where people head canon their character’s relationship with other NPCs. People were up in arms when one of the most popular characters in the game formed an emotional bond with a minor NPC who may or may not be in love with her.

People get very passionate about pairings, and it does not surprise me at all that people have strong opinions about ROs in CoG/HG games, especially since ROs are a huge selling point.

Second, I believe there’s an unspoken understanding between writers and the audience; the writer agrees to tell a story and take the audience on a journey, and the audience agrees to follow that story so long as it doesn’t violate basic expectations (different audiences will have different expectations, of course).

From my observations, Interactive Fiction modifies that contract.

In Interactive Fiction, the writer agrees to put the audience in the driver’s seat and offers them semi-control over how the story unfolds, while the audience accepts their options aren’t infinite and that they don’t have complete control over the story.

Here, the reader is the protagonist and is the most important character in the setting because it’s their choices that’s driving the story forward. But they cannot grab the story by the throat and force it down a path the writer didn’t design it to go down.

The writer has full creative control and creates the story, the setting, and the characters. However, they cannot realistically account for every single choice that thousands of different readers make.

In certain ways, Interactive Fiction is an unspoken compromise between the reader and the writer.

(I want to clarify that this isn’t a case of a writer needing to be at a reader’s beck and call. The writer is the writer; they’re in charge and they decide how the story goes, no one else. I just think that the nature of Interactive Fiction makes the boundary between writers and readers a bit more… complicated than usual.)

Interactive Fiction depends on the illusion of control; despite knowing they’re not in control, I don’t think readers like being reminded of that since it breaks their immersion.

I think that’s where the “imposing a canon” argument is coming from it; ROs are a huge selling point and readers feel like they have, or should have control over that aspect of the story (as in who they can romance and fall in love with and who falls in love with whom, not as in problematically possessive).

Through that lens, I think ROs romancing other ROs instead of the protagonist comes across as breaking that illusion for some readers since it reminds them they aren’t really in the driver’s seat, and they’re worried that their feelings and opinions don’t matter. (That’s not the case for everyone, of course. Like others have correctly pointed out, ROs romancing other ROs enhances the story instead of breaking the illusion for them.)

Now, we can argue the merits of that all day whether that’s a fair expectation, and if that’s unreasonable towards the writer.

But I think that’s the core.

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Except this is a null-value argument (for this discussion), because it works for both sides. It’s no less out of my control to make NPCs get together. E.g., Astrid and Leon getting together if you don’t romance either of them is just as not-the-MC-making-the-decision as Thalia and Kol NOT getting together.

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I’m not sure I understand, could you elaborate?

Astrid and Leon will only get together if the player chooses not to romance them and makes a series of specific decisions.

Kol and Thalia have seperate love interests if the player chooses not to romance them.

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Ok, so, if I understood you correctly, you say that NPCs getting together if the player doesn’t want them to breaks the illusion of the player being in the driver seat not just of the MC, but the story.

My point is that a pair of NPCs NOT getting together if the player wants them to is just as breaking.

Of course, this can segue into the bigger (in terms of scope) argument on whether the player should actually have any influence in the story outside the MC’s actions and their consequences. As someone (Haverstone?) pointed out, having a fork in the road where both paths lead to the same cabin is bad shenanigans (barring some in-universe explanation, of course), but the cabin being a cabin and not a hot springs resort because the player would like a hot spring resort instead of a cabin is not.

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I feel like i am not romantically interested in ROs that I see get together with other characters. E.g. some of the characters from Creme de la Creme.

But if there are lots of ROs, it doesn’t really impact how much I enjoy the game. I’ll just pick a different RO, and it can be enjoyable seeing the romantic arcs of other characters.

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Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it!

That’s what suspect is going on. In hindsight, I probably should have said that some people may view it as a form of railroading, which is a surefire way of breaking immersion in Interactive Fiction; that might have been easier for me to explain, but I digress.

It’s obviously not true in all instances, of course. Like others have pointed out, ROs romancing other ROs helps immerse them into the story.

That’s just as valid as the immersion breaking, so in a lot of ways, this is subjective.

Personally, “imposing a canon” isn’t one of my reasons I don’t like ROs romancing other ROs, but I can see where the argument’s coming from.

That said, no, the CoG/HG writers don’t have malicious intent. From what I’ve seen, most of the writers here just want to write the stories they want to write and share them with readers.

That’s normal.

I agree, and that’s one of my points as well.

People get invested in pairings, and it doesn’t have to just be MC/(Insert RO Here); it’s pairings in general. What pairing that ends up being depends on the person/fandom.

There’s just something about ROs that makes them a flashpoint.

That’s not to imply a writer has an obligation here. There is none. I just know it’s caused me to rethink how I would write ROs in a story.

Isn’t that the holy grail of Interactive Fiction? A story that shapes itself according to the player’s/reader’s actions?

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That’s what IF already is. An IF perfectly shaped to a player’s desires? That’s some people’s holy grail, but not others’. :slight_smile:

Stories perfectly shaped to the reader’s desires already exist. It’s just that the reader has to write those themselves.

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But it already does. As a comparison, Michelangelo shaped a block of marble into David; but he couldn’t have turned it into uranium.

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