Preferability of "non gender segregation" world in CoG

I don’t like those games that use forced sex or forced discrimination to looking gritty and to be directly a sexual fetish for teens who love hentai and yaoi games focused in violence and forced their will upon a weaker character.

I don’t care about the that exist in the real world" Yes and taxation, taxidermy and ants Do you use them in your game? And why is always women or non binary the ones to suffering the discrimination. Once I had a discussion with certain author focused in forced rape and violence to the point of mutilation of women. Why your game is gender locked as women. his answer was
“No men, even gay would suffering that humiliation. No way, men is better than that and wkuld never let himself being reduced to that. So wouldn’t be credible”

It is currently curious all those people focused in introduction of discrimination and strong themes are male. I tried years ago do something like that so gross that people would notice how terrible rape is but I discovered is a bad thing. People would use that in a porn gross setting totally against the concept I wanted show.

We aren’t here to get discrimination and rape we have to suffer that in real world . Role playing is used in therapy like a way to learn more about other ways to act and empathy. It should not make feel like we feel in real life.

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I very much prefer having a world with some discrimination and prejudice against females if it’s inspired by a historical setting, as opposed to a fully gender-egalitarian one. It absolutely feels more “realistic” to me, even if it is fantasy. Many people had a problem with some NPCs in the first Dragon Age having sexist attitudes, but I didn’t mind at all.

This is just my personal preference. I relish the feeling of overcoming someone else’s low expectations.

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You don’t speak for all trans folk and NBs, only your own experience with dysphoria.

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I speak for everyone in my social group, since we’ve all talked about this before, which is… Hm. 8 NBs, last I counted. If you’re counting binary folk I have one trans man friend and two trans women friends for a grand total of 11 trans people.

Even though our ideas and experiences of dysphoria differ, we all agree if it’s bad for some of us, it might as well be bad for all of us as a group. Even though something doesn’t affect you, if it hurts some people enough or makes them feel uncomfortable, it’s usually a good enough argument to remove.

We are fortunate to have a forum where we can discuss a lot of varied topics. However, some topics, such as this one, require a certain amount of sensitivity. Please remember to be polite. If you are unable to do so, please excuse yourself from the discussion. If someone has excused themselves, do not continue to try to engage them.

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Yeah, and now I’m going to politely “excuse” myself from this discussion, as I already said my piece several posts up.

People can take it or leave it, idk, just a personal opinion from my side here.

Ahahah, that is probably the best argument for the inclusion of non completely realistic elements into a story. :grin:

And I’m thankful to every single person that gave their contribution to the question that I posed. It deepened my believe in the complexity of the problem and, concurrently, reinforced my conviction in the preferability of an unisex jail (but I will take some time to reflect about the question).

That being said, I plead to any other member of the community just now reaching this thread/discussion to leave their contribute if they want to. This discussion has the potential to be much, much larger than the specific example/problem that I provided for reflection. It obviously doesn’t need to end just because I believe to have found an answer (or at least a temporary one until I bring my little project to public) to my problem.

Feel free to add more layers to the discussion or to give your input into the problems/topics in discussion until now. Or don’t. I’m obviously not the boss of anyone :yum:.

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A lot depends on your target audience. One person’s fun bit of escapism is another person’s “jump the shark” moment or unrealistic immersion-breaking story-ruiner. Pick your audience and proceed accordingly. Given that I tend to pick apart the internal logic of every story I read or watch, I personally have a fairly high bar for “willing suspension of disbelief” and tend to prefer grittier stories with characters that feel real, and where life’s adversities not only exist but through intelligent play can be overcome. Nevertheless I recognize that I’m not everyone.

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It’s easier to program a truly unisex world :slight_smile:

Honestly it’s not that deep to me, an authors creation is their own not mine. If I don’t like what they write I simply won’t read it.

This is definitely an interesting topic, and one that I’ve tried to consider a great deal. I’m definitely curious to know how more people feel about this.

I should disclaim that, being male and cis, I’m not personally disadvantaged by most of the factors people have been talking about in this thread. I am gay, though, so I can explain how prejudice in games personally affects me. I hope that these themes are important and applicable to the question of whether or not to include prejudice.

My inclination would be that there is value in having both stories/games that deal with themes of discrimination, and ones in which it isn’t a factor at all. Discrimination can be very powerful and very moving to read about, and is such an important part of experience that it is worth writing about and worth reading about. At the same time, it can get very tiring when that’s all there is to read. It’s incredibly affirming when I can read or play a gay character in a story that isn’t about being gay, doing all the things straight characters always do. I don’t know if people who aren’t marginalized always understand how confining it can feel to look around stories and constantly feel like you don’t belong, and that when you do, it’s only for a moral about prejudice.

So basically what I’m saying is that they both have a place. Being such a major part of experience, I wouldn’t want to see prejudice being always ignored, and I really value it when works of media can explore it deeply. But I also want to see works that aren’t about it, and still give the characters the same opportunities. That doesn’t mean a story can’t still be gritty, if desired. And prejudice themes require that the author give them full respect, and not merely exploit them, or throw them in without consideration.

It also really depends a lot on the story and setting. (And tone, for that matter.) I’ll just give a couple examples from two of my favorite CoGs, in which, despite how much I enjoy and esteem them, I would rather they handled things differently. Here I’m just talking about gay characters, because that was where I personally felt an impact.

In one direction was Hollywood Visionary, which takes place in the 1950s. For the most part, the characters around seem like people who would reasonably make sense as more tolerant than typical, and the romantic stuff is not too public, anyway. However, there is a very bigoted man. If you look at the code, you’ll see a short bit of writing in which he would have been homophobic to a main character involved in a gay romance, and another character would immediately thereafter comfort the main character. But this bit of writing is hidden by the *comment command, and would never be visible when actually playing the game. I found it very touching; the inclusion of such a strongly supportive character in the face of adversity felt more valuable to me than the version we got, which papers over this. There is also a character who, if they are the same gender as the main character, may express having once been married to someone also of the same gender, which also feels like it doesn’t acknowledge the dynamics of the '50s. (I mean, sure, one of them could’ve been trans, or it could’ve been a marriage that wasn’t done by law, but they considered it marriage nonetheless… but it’s still an example of one of the places where some acknowledgement of being gay would’ve been nice.) In general, despite the wonderful inclusiveness of the game, and its versatile gender-related options, it feels like something is missing from the experience of a gay person in the '50s.

Now, on the completely opposite side of the fence, there’s just a single little discrepancy in Sixth Grade Detective, which otherwise reads pretty much the same no matter the sexual orientation.
At one point, when the main character meets Darren, the uncle of a potential romance, A.J. (whose gender the player can select), this uncle can tease them by asking if the main character is A.J.'s boyfriend/girlfriend, which gets A.J. all embarrassed. But this only happens if the main character and A.J. are girl/boy or boy/girl.
When I saw this in the code, I felt like a little bit of cuteness had been stolen from me. Sure, I can see a justification, that Darren would make the same heteronormative assumption that many people make, but I don’t care. It’s a fluffy story, there’s no exploration of discrimination, which would be jarring with the story’s tone in any case, I get a chance to have a gay kid in a story that has absolutely nothing to do with him being gay, but allows him to express it in as natural a fashion as heterosexual characters usually get to… and I want my gay kid to get an affectionate tease just the same as any straight kid.

So my point from these two examples is that context, setting, and tone are key, and the way the author handles it makes a big difference. There is a place and a time to address prejudicial themes, and there is a place and a time to let characters experience the same stories without being weighed down by the same baggage they have to deal with in life.

(We also shouldn’t assume that our history’s prejudices are the only way these prejudices could’ve developed, and that discrimination in games would work the same way we’re used to. It could be interesting indeed to explore a setting that developed in a distinct and different way.)

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I did find myself arguing for homophobia in at least one WIP thread… (That is, in-story, because continuing the family line would have been far more important than being accepting.)

For the genders, the most I’ve ever changed is a little flavour text (and an occasional potential romance). I just feel that unless you’re going to put quite a bit of effort into exploring these various different prejudices, then you do the minorities no favours by including them.

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Everything is a matter of perspective. One man’s villain is another man’s hero.

One’s gender (physical and psychological) and sexual preferences should be just as earth shattering a revelation as one’s preference of chocolate. The sooner the world grows to this point the better imo.

As to the matter of realism: I don’t play games for realism. If I want realism I open the front door and step out.

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I agree (male, male, and milk, in case you’re wondering). My point in the WIP thread was more that if family bloodlines were paramount (and they seemed to be so), then people would likely see a non-procreating relationship as lesser. I did realise what I was saying halfway through, though, and was chided by @Lizzy… (Checking the replies, it seems that one family did force straight relationships on their heirs, so I resolved to “convert” one of their sons… ;P)

As I’ve said before, if my MC is a laser-shooting superhero, or a magical dragonrider, I see no reason why he can’t be dating another guy. The same should be true for female, and transgender characters, too.

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That certainly sounds like something I would do…but I don’t remember doing it :thinking:

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The WIP was Legends: the Battlemage, and the post in question was this:

Your post contained the following:

Damn it @ParrotWatcher did you forget which side of this argument we’re on! :laughing:

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Oooooooooh! I remember that one lol No more trying to get our rights taken away :wink:

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Oh god, so true. Especially given that one of the main npc is introduced right there in jail. For a first time programer an unisex world is indeed much easier. That was one of the main reasons that led me to put the question to the community.

Honestly? I am a first time writer, I don’t know if I have the capability to deal with those issues in the way they deserve. That, and the fact that the PC is already facing issues with such an emotional potential, leds me to believe increasingly more in creating a world without any kind of segregation or discrimination in sexual and gender issues.

That would indeed be the perfect attitude. I get really mad and sad when I see people of my generation (early 90’s), and even younger ones, discriminating others because of things that should indeed be taken as just another manifestation of our individual differences. We aren’t ants, we have individuality, ergo why should anyone be discriminated due to their own individuality? Crazy world.

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So I’m a cis-woman. I personally don’t believe that men and women are all that different in any important way, but obviously society treats us very differently. I don’t know if it’s fair to say that I’m discriminated against every day based solely on my gender, but it definitely happens often enough that I’m aware of it everyday.

So a fictional world with no gender discrimination feels false to me. I don’t want to be beat over the head with it, but a little bit makes the world feel real. The same way it’s a character’s flaws that make her feel real to me.

“Slammed,” a game I never thought I’d like, did this perfectly. For the most part there was no gender discrimination at all. My character was never objectified the way women seem to be in real professional wrestling. But there was that once scene with one of the villains toward the end where he’s very dismissive towards you because you’re a woman.

For me that moment really helped drive home my character’s motivation for the last act of that story. I wasn’t just trying to win for the sake of winning. I was trying to beat this jerk and discredit his bigoted beliefs.

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I was going to stay out of this thread but I feel this points to the crux of the matter and provides the answer that @ruhenri is looking for.

The discrimination experienced in the story need not happen every waking moment, only enough to make the reader aware that it happens everyday.

In the jail, one sub-scene showing such reinforced by “rumors, stories heard and read” could drive home the motivation that discrimination provides for the peak moments or the big “choice” moments.

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