Non-Gender Specific MC's and Romance Options

[Cirrocumulus]

That’s what I don’t understand as well. Granted I am asexual so genitals simply don’t interest me as a whole (I do love to get into the psychological aspects of sexuality though, so interesting!) - but I’d never disregard someone as a partner simply because they happen to be trans. While I have a huge preference for masculine attributes (which mostly has to do with me being a fragile and tiny female and I like to feel safe and secure) I generally don’t understand the point of completely separating myself from the possibility to get together with someone who is female, trans, agender or gender fluid.

At its core I fall for a person and while I do have preferences for what I find aesthetically beautiful (which involves masculine, feminine as well as androgynous looks), that doesn’t involve genitals in the slightest. If you are a man, you are a man. Whether you have junk down your trunk or not really doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. So all that I can say is there ARE people who don’t mind.

But I think sexuality and gender related topics severely suffer from being glossed over in school. We should educate our children more about these things than we do. God knows I would have never figured out that I am ace without the Internet.

[TSSL]

@Lycoris

Ah, that’s… complicated. Like, I believe that it may be difficult for someone cisgender to truly understand the difference between nb genders such as agender/neutrois/genderfluid enough to say “I am attracted to neutrois but not genderfluid people”.

Oh, yes, I see this point I guess I’m thinking more like nonbinary people who do identify as more masculine or more feminine, but not strictly male or female, but I think that would be more complexity than we’d generally want to get into for choice game purposes, and doesn’t really do anything for those nonbinary people who don’t identify more with one or the other. I think?

I guess in “real life” most of the time people would be less thinking about which specific genders they might find attractive, and more just noticing if they find a specific person attractive especially since orientations are complex and exceptions often exist… but I don’t think this is something we could really model in a choice game context, and I also doubt this is likely to be something we’d want to model in a choice game context…

@Lycoris

Orientation has a lot of… what’s the word? Planes/tiers that separate the romantic and sexual (and sometimes the sensual) parts of the orientation, and they don’t always have to agree. So… the mono/poly part is just like the asexual/allosexual aspect, another nuance.

That is so true… I’m pretty confidently gay (in case this hasn’t been apparent? ;P) but even so, I’ve sometimes felt something for a few women that was… not at all sexual, and not quite romantic, but… yeah, I don’t even know what the right word would be

People are complicated.

@Lycoris

Aaaaay, what a mess of an explanation If you don’t understand something or want me to clarify it, feel free to ask

It was very helpful thank you

And thanks to everyone else sharing their perspectives as well

[DreamingGames]

@Snoe

Essentially with non-specific genders it’s better to let the Npc make that mistake and the main character correct them. It’s a more natural way to do things…BUT mind how you do that because it’s a tricky line to walk with some folks (Not everyone is as live and let live as I am on a good day.)

I will say that this is one area where I really don’t want realism. Admittely, I am in the gender-closet in real life and it is currently giving me a lot of pain, but if any NPC made an assumption on my gender in game, they would draw my immediatly hate for reminding me of something that brings me in real life pain.

From a mechanical writing perspective a guess gender wrong also brings a lot of trouble because there is a lot of different genders outside the binary and as a writer you have no idea how the player imagine that character represent.

So if the character has to guess wrong, you as a writer can end up having to ask the player for the characters biological sex, their gender presentation ( do they lean femine, masculine, androgyn, doesn’t care etc, throw on random clothes. switches it up from day to day - there are a lot of gender presentations out there), and maybe even their social gender conditioning. (I for example have somehow picked up on masculine coded behavior, despite being never have identified myself with anything masculine, which trips some people up.)

All this for something that might trigger someone. So unless gender identity as a whole is deeply important to the way the story play out, it is just not worth it.

As for a romance. The easiest is simply to decide which romances are open to more than one gender, and capable of wrapping their mind around non-binary genders if you must have ‘realism’.

[HomingPidgeon]

@DreamingGames

So if the character has to guess wrong, you as a writer can end up having to ask the player for the characters biological sex, their gender presentation ( do they lean femine, masculine, androgyn, doesn’t care etc, throw on random clothes. switches it up from day to day - there are a lot of gender presentations out there), and maybe even their social gender conditioning. (I for example have somehow picked up on masculine coded behavior, despite being never have identified myself with anything masculine, which trips some people up.)

All this for something that might trigger someone. So unless gender identity as a whole is deeply important to the way the story play out, it is just not worth it.

In general I’m inclined to agree with this–it might not be realistic, but I mean there are a lot of other factors that might lead to someone being assumed as the wrong gender/pronoun that would be left out for people who aren’t nonbinary. In general, I think including the “realistic” stuff that would come with being nonbinary (explaining your identity, repeating your pronouns, answering related questions …) is better left out.

There’s a scene in @Scribblesome 's Awoken WIP with a very slight slip up, basically Character A introducing the MC to Character B and pausing at the pronouns, which the MC then provides, and I think if it has to be acknowledged that’s the way to do it (unless, like said before, the gender identity is important to the story). It’s two lines, it only happens once, and it adds a touch of realism without calling a lot of attention to the MC’s gender.

[DreamingGames]

@HomingPidgeon

@DreamingGames

So if the character has to guess wrong, you as a writer can end up having to ask the player for the characters biological sex, their gender presentation ( do they lean femine, masculine, androgyn, doesn’t care etc, throw on random clothes. switches it up from day to day - there are a lot of gender presentations out there), and maybe even their social gender conditioning. (I for example have somehow picked up on masculine coded behavior, despite being never have identified myself with anything masculine, which trips some people up.)

All this for something that might trigger someone. So unless gender identity as a whole is deeply important to the way the story play out, it is just not worth it.

In general I’m inclined to agree with this–it might not be realistic, but I mean there are a lot of other factors that might lead to someone being assumed as the wrong gender/pronoun that would be left out for people who aren’t nonbinary. In general, I think including the “realistic” stuff that would come with being nonbinary (explaining your identity, repeating your pronouns, answering related questions …) is better left out.

There’s a scene in @Scribblesome 's Awoken WIP with a very slight slip up, basically Character A introducing the MC to Character B and pausing at the pronouns, which the MC then provides, and I think if it has to be acknowledged that’s the way to do it (unless, like said before, the gender identity is important to the story). It’s two lines, it only happens once, and it adds a touch of realism without calling a lot of attention to the MC’s gender.

Yeah, I generally don’t mind a polite “What do you prefer to be called?” Or a slight hesitation. They are usually quickly done with and don’t ligner on the issue.

But being called masculine, feminine or androgyn feel like the author making a lot of assumptions about how my character dresses and behaves. And frankly if a love interest did it, I would never stop questioning if they still see my character as a boy/girl.

Also, it is a lot of work for very little reward to get it ‘realistically’ right.

[Snoe]

You have a point and I can see your point of view. Though there is something to be said about delivery of the question. The How who when and where can change an innocent honest mistake into some very hurtful.

So ‘one size fits all’ approaches don’t quite work here. Although it’s nigh impossible to please everyone or offend no-one.

[Sashira]

Brainstorming a few other ways for people to get pronouns correct:

1. Other characters hear people who know the right ones use them first.
2. Your setting is small enough (e.g., a rural town, a college) that everybody knows everybody. Mention the first time a stranger uses them that “they must have heard that the kid with the white hair and the blue truck goes by ‘em’”.
3. It’s a sci-fi setting, and people can look up each others’ information on some kind of profile before addressing each other.
4. The person is moderately famous in some way, so people recognize them and know which pronouns to use.
5. It’s an AU/sci-fi setting where a visible symbol denotes pronouns (“my Spivak pin was in place, so I had no problems.”)
6. Avoid other characters using the third person. “You” is always “you”, or go with nouns like “your friend”.

[Lycoris]

@TSSL

I guess I’m thinking more like nonbinary people who do identify as more masculine or more feminine, but not strictly male or female, but I think that would be more complexity than we’d generally want to get into for choice game purposes, and doesn’t really do anything for those nonbinary people who don’t identify more with one or the other. I think?

Androphilia and gynephilia? It’s used by nb to point out who they are attracted to without using the gender binary labels, because it’s an attraction to men/masculinity or female/feminity without strictly meaning only cis people. E.g: someone bigender attracted to demiboys is androphilic.

@TSSL

That is so true… I’m pretty confidently gay (in case this hasn’t been apparent? ) but even so, I’ve sometimes felt something for a few women that was… not at all sexual, and not quite romantic, but… yeah, I don’t even know what the right word would be

Sensual, I think (which is not the same as romantic). I have read that usually, ace people use the sensual attraction to determine who they date instead of just befriending, so the kind of affection you may feel towards them is likely sensual (not the same as sexual: sensual involves the senses, acts that stimulate them such as hugging, cuddling, holding hands, something purely aesthetical, etc.). I must add, sometimes it’s a bit hard for allosexual people to differentiate the sensual/sexual aspects.

[TSSL]

So, on the the subject of presenting characters’ pronouns, I wonder if the same reasoning applies in the case of other character as well That is, when the main character is meeting someone new, and wouldn’t know that person’s pronouns… would it generally be best just to go with the convention of using that person’s correct pronouns, or making sure to introduce them as soon as possible?

@Lycoris

Androphilia and gynephilia? It’s used by nb to point out who they are attracted to without using the gender binary labels, because it’s an attraction to men/masculinity or female/feminity without strictly meaning only cis people. E.g: someone bigender attracted to demiboys is androphilic.

Ah, this makes sense I didn’t realize that the terms would apply to nonbinary genders such as demiboys as well.

(I also expect a lot of people just wouldn’t know the limits of their sexual orientation… I mean… I don’t…)

@Lycoris

Sensual, I think (which is not the same as romantic). I have read that usually, ace people use the sensual attraction to determine who they date instead of just befriending, so the kind of affection you may feel towards them is likely sensual (not the same as sexual: sensual involves the senses, acts that stimulate them such as hugging, cuddling, holding hands, something purely aesthetical, etc.). I must add, sometimes it’s a bit hard for allosexual people to differentiate the sensual/sexual aspects.

That sounds like it might be right at least, a fairly toned-down version of it. It’s completely nonsexual and involves no desire to even date, but it does involve aesthetic attraction, and a strong desire to be extra good friends
Thanks, this differentiation should make it a lot easier to describe without having to say “well, not just platonic, nor purely aesthetic, and not at all sexual, but not romantic either, uh… if y’know what I mean?”

The fact that the different types of attraction don’t always match up for different genders could lead to some interesting romance options if someone felt like pursuing that path… like if a character would be available romantically and sexually to some genders, but would be an asexual romance for some other genders And then there’s also intimate friendships that aren’t romantic or sexual but are still passionate…

[ashestoashes018]

TL;DR it is easy to code in nonbinary or trans options. Saying it is too hard when you’re already coding in gender is just an excuse. also some societal stuff

I…I’m not sure what happened, but @Bjorked did a thing that brought me to this thread, so I guess my commentary is wanted? Idk, lol!

This first bit is to provide @Cirrocumulus examples, so ignore if you don’t want to see walls of code, lol.

In all honesty, coding in a third gender is incredibly simple. It doesn’t have to be as complex as what I have in place for one of my two WIP, which looks like…

#Keeper...
  *set Gender "nonbinary"
  *set title "Keeper"
  *set lady "person"
  *set son "child"
  *set brother "sibling"
  *goto pronouns
  *label pronouns
  What are your preferred pronouns?
  *choice
   #ey/em/eir/eirs/eirself
    *set he "ey"
    *set him "em"
    *set his "eir"
    *set hiss "eirs"
    *set himself "eirself"
    *goto nonbinarynames
   #per/pers/perself
    *set he "per"
    *set him "per"
    *set his "pers"
    *set hiss "pers"
    *set himself "perself"
    *goto nonbinarynames
   #they/them/their/theirs/themself
    *set he "they"
    *set him "them"
    *set his "their"
    *set hiss "theirs"
    *set himself "themself"
    *goto nonbinarynames
   #ve/ver/vis/verself
    *set he "ve"
    *set him "ver"
    *set his "vis"
    *set hiss "vis"
    *set himself "verself"
    *goto nonbinary names
   #xe/xem/xyr/xyrs/xemself
    *set he "xe"
    *set him "xem"
    *set his "xyr"
    *set hiss "xyrs"
    *set himself "xemself"
    *goto nonbinarynames
   #ze/hir/hirs/hirself
    *set he "ze"
    *set him "hir"
    *set his "hir"
    *set hiss "hirs"
    *set himself "hirself"
    *goto nonbinarynames
   #None of these are quite right...
    Okay! What is your preferred subject pronoun (like "he")?
    *input_text he
    *goto pronoun2
    *label pronoun2
    And what is your preferred object pronoun (like "him")?
    *input_text him
    *goto pronoun3
    *label pronoun3
    What is your preferred possessive (like "her")?
    *input_text his
    *goto pronoun4
    *label pronoun4
    What about your preferred possessive pronoun (like "hers")?
    *input_text hiss
    *goto pronoun5
    *label pronoun5
    And what is your reflexive pronoun (like "themself")?
    *input_text himself
    *goto nonbinarynames
    *label nonbinarynames
    Keeper...what was your name again?
    *choice
     #Ren

It can be as simple as what I have in place for my other WIP, which looks like…

It wouldn't surprise you if it was one of the younger...
*choice
 #boys you room with.
  *set gender "male"
  *set twinname "Marlon"
  *set their "his"
  *set theirs "his"
  *set them "him"
  *set they "he"
  *set themself "himself"
  *set child "son"
  *set mister "mister"
  *goto orphanintro2
 #girls you room with.
  *set gender "female"
  *set twinname "Marla"
  *set their "her"
  *set theirs "hers"
  *set them "her"
  *set they "she"
  *set themself "herself"
  *set child "daughter"
  *set mister "miss"
  *goto orphanintro2
 #children you room with.
  *set gender "nonbinary"
  *set twinname "Marlie"
  *set their "their"
  *set theirs "theirs"
  *set them "them"
  *set they "they"
  *set themself "themself"
  *set child "child"
  *set mister "mystery"
  *goto orphanintro2
  *label orphanintro2

It’s literally something that can be as easily done as an additional 5 minutes of copy-pasting and inputting the correct pronouns. Or it is something that you can do about two hours’ research on, like I initially did for my first WIP. I may still implement the dozens of lines of code in my second WIP, but…it’s fairly easy to do, so long as you remember your spaces.

If your concern is whether or not an RO will be attracted, there are a few options – the most common way of doing things is making RO’s all player-sexual. I’ve made it abundantly clear in other threads that I do not agree with writing games like this. It feels like a catch-all (see: Dragon Age II) and, in worst case-scenario can almost feel like pandering or token (see: Reyes or Peebee in ME:A). There are ways this can be done well (see: Fatehaven), but generally speaking, I think it comes off poorly.

For instance, I plan on adding in code for romantic options. If I provide you with the sample code from earlier, it takes about two minutes to do:

It wouldn't surprise you if it was one of the younger...
*choice
 #boys you room with.
  *set Petunia_attraction true
  *set Dorothy_attraction true
  *set Blossom_attraction true
  *set Miles_attraction true
  *set gender "male"
  *set twinname "Marlon"
  *set their "his"
  *set theirs "his"
  *set them "him"
  *set they "he"
  *set themself "himself"
  *set child "son"
  *set mister "mister"
  *goto orphanintro2
 #girls you room with.
  *set Damian_attraction true
  *set Blossom_attraction true
  *set Petunia_attraction true
  *set Gray_attraction true
  *set gender "female"
  *set twinname "Marla"
  *set their "her"
  *set theirs "hers"
  *set them "her"
  *set they "she"
  *set themself "herself"
  *set child "daughter"
  *set mister "miss"
  *goto orphanintro2
 #children you room with.
  *set Damian_attraction true
  *set Petunia_attraction true
  *set Blossom_attraction true
  *set gender "nonbinary"
  *set twinname "Marlie"
  *set their "their"
  *set theirs "theirs"
  *set them "them"
  *set they "they"
  *set themself "themself"
  *set child "child"
  *set mister "mystery"
  *goto orphanintro2
  *label orphanintro2

all you have to do is make certain that you create the variables within the startup.txt – it is seriously probably the easiest part of CS coding you can come across – simple variable sets. This isn’t like testing if MC has enough Strength + Dexterity OR enough Lethality to break through a fence, or something. Those are complex tests.

I really can’t stand the excuse that coding in sexuality or gender is too hard, because you’re ALREADY DOING IT. Just take the extra five minutes to add the third gender – and if coding in sexuality is too hard, don’t do it at all. Don’t pretend like it’s “too hard,” if you’re already taking basic steps to do it. Be inclusive. If you want to go the extra mile, like @Sashira, just create additional flags and some flavor-text. I’m not exaggerating when I say that this is the easiest part of CS to learn. Take the fifteen minutes – or ask someone with more experience to help. Excluding something because it’s “too hard” is quitting before you’ve even tried, in all honesty.

NOW, to move past coding, into the social aspect, which I’ve already sort of touched on:
the one thing that is great about player-sexual romantic options is that you can avoid fetishization. For example, @Lycoris’ WIP includes really intricate sexualities – certain characters prefer x hair color or y body type. I think that’s really cool and adds a level of intricacy not yet seen within a CoG or HG – however, there is slight danger there. Someone above mentioned people who only date Asians, due to some sort of…well, fetish regarding Asian culture, Asian stereotypes, or Asian physicality. We have to be careful of that. Having blond hair should not preclude an MC from dating someone who prefers redheads.

For all intents and purposes, I feel that, aside from some flavor text, whether a character is trans or demi should not affect the way a romantic option sees them. That’s where I feel that realism needs to be cut out (argues the chick who wants balanced, diverse casts purely for realism, lol) – there shouldn’t be a romantic option that avoids someone who is MTF simply based upon the sex assigned to her at birth.

The only thing I have to say on sexuality is that there IS a difference between bisexuality and pansexuality. Bisexuality implies two genders – for all intents and purposes, in my games, this means that those who are bisexual are automatically also attracted to MTF women and FTM men, because they’re one of the two “main” genders. Pansexuality would stretch to cover the multitude of agender, nonbinary, genderfluid, etc. people (honestly, I’m not up to date, but I think at last count, there are over 35 genders people ascribe to. This is a bit much for me, but I respect the way other people need to live their lives and speak about themselves to be comfortable in their own skin). I think this is just a much simpler way to code and to view the world.

If you were doing a game specifically about sexuality and gender relations, I could see needing to take the extra steps, but as it stands, I think that it may be a step too far and be incredibly confusing for readers who may happen to be nonbinary then find themselves in a wall of text with a million choices regarding exactly HOW they self-identify. It might even be off-putting for some (though I’m more than certain it would be a big draw for others).

As for how to go about providing pronouns when MC is meeting other characters, I…personally really don’t like it. I understand that in the real world, it doesn’t make sense for everyone to automatically know if you’re agender/NB – particularly if you present more as one “main” gender or the other, but…idk. It feels stilted and unnatural to me, and actually ends up turning me off to a game. I actually tend to run with very liberal circles (college, you know the drill) despite not being the most liberal person myself…and nothing has offended me more than someone asking me my pronouns. I would rather someone use the wrong pronouns and allow me to correct them than ask me my pronouns. This is VERY obviously personal preference, particularly since I am cisgender, but I feel that my opinion is just as valid as someone who is nonbinary or trans, specifically because I have experienced being asked my pronouns. On a day when I was wearing a dress. With long hair. And heels. I was actually incredibly insulted. That day I knew what it felt like to be misgendered as a transperson and have since been much more careful about misgendering people.

ummmm, I think that’s about it. Tl;dr.

[Bjorked]

@ashestoashes018

@Bjorked did a thing that brought me to this thread, so I guess my commentary is wanted? Idk, lol!

Ya, IDK, thought you might have feels for this topic, so…Welcome to the party…

Back on topic, I totally agree with this:

Excluding something because it’s “too hard” is quitting before you’ve even tried, in all honesty.

It feels like this was a major excuse for way too many mainstream games…

Thanks @ashestoashes018 for posting on this thread, I didn’t mean to come across as pushy or anything…

[ashestoashes018]

I do have feels for this topic! I taught myself CS using the guides, mostly (with a little help from the fantastic wiki), and I’m not exactly the most intelligent person when it comes to technology. I still don’t know how to use an iPhone. Any of them. It isn’t that hard to learn – holding yourself back is an excuse, at best, and subconscious bias, at worst.

@Bjorked

It feels like this was a major excuse for way too many mainstream games…

It is. I can…sorta understand with visual games, because creating an entirely different model can costs thousands of dollars, not to mention a third voice actor – and that’s just to provide a “general” nonbinary option. This isn’t getting into trans, demi, etc. people. It could quickly start to get in the millions – just for character creation.

That being said, for a text-based game using an engine even simpler than basic javascript (by far) it’s either lazy or, again, subconscious bias. If you’re already coding in two genders, why is it that much harder to code in a third? Gets me heated, honestly (this is my favorite emoji, btw)

[Bjorked]

Yeah, absolutely!

sorta understand with visual games, because creating an entirely different model can costs thousands of dollars, not to mention a third voice actor

I think one of the problems with gender coding is that game developers, big game developers especially, seem to take this ‘one size fits all’ approach and it just doesn’t work…

Maybe that’s the reason so many authors/ gamers/ etc. have so many opinions on the topic; because there isn’t just one solution to the problem and there is definitely more than one problem feeding into this…

(Now if only there were a winking upside-down emoji…)

[TSSL]

@ashestoashes018

If your concern is whether or not an RO will be attracted, there are a few options – the most common way of doing things is making RO’s all player-sexual. I’ve made it abundantly clear in other threads that I do not agree with writing games like this. It feels like a catch-all (see: Dragon Age II) and, in worst case-scenario can almost feel like pandering or token (see: Reyes or Peebee in ME:A). There are ways this can be done well (see: Fatehaven), but generally speaking, I think it comes off poorly.

When it comes to romance options, I like having a mix too. There’s more representation that way. For me, the main concern is that people of different orientation and gender combos should have roughly equivalent amounts of content available. I also think it’s usually best if everyone has at least two options, so readers don’t feel like they have to pick a certain person if they want any romance at all. Well, unless it’s a game where there’s basically only one option per person anyway.
I understand this concern is what leads to a lot of romances being playersexual and often even genderflipping… it does take more time and writing to include a substantial quantity of romance options…

And I agree with you that the coding should be worth doing

@ashestoashes018

there shouldn’t be a romantic option that avoids someone who is MTF simply based upon the sex assigned to her at birth.

Yeah… if a character is like that, they should be rightly considered a bigot and presented as such not a positive romance at all!

@ashestoashes018

The only thing I have to say on sexuality is that there IS a difference between bisexuality and pansexuality. Bisexuality implies two genders – for all intents and purposes, in my games, this means that those who are bisexual are automatically also attracted to MTF women and FTM men, because they’re one of the two “main” genders. Pansexuality would stretch to cover the multitude of agender, nonbinary, genderfluid, etc.

These words’ definitions tend to get a bit contentious, because people mean different things by them for example, bisexual can also refer to male+nb or female+nb rather than male+female. Or, many people define it as attraction to their own gender and other genders, which adds up to two things. Some people refer to themselves as bi because more people know the term. Some people consider pansexuality to mean attraction without regard to gender, and bisexuality to mean attraction in which gender is still a significant factor. But some other people will identify as pansexual without it meaning that they consider gender insignificant to their attractions.

So the way you phrase the distinction is definitely the way many people do, and is something people should be aware of, but, as with most things, individuals will vary

I’ve witnessed a lot of rancorous arguments over these two words’ precise definitions, but really I feel it’s best to just let people use whichever term they feel best suits themselves and with characters, to consider not just which the character would identify with, but what that identity means to them.

@ashestoashes018

nothing has offended me more than someone asking me my pronouns.

Well, I do understand this makes you uncomfortable but a lot of time it’s about trying to help trans and/or nonbinary people feel more comfortable by not making assumptions about what someone’s pronouns are. I’ve seen plenty of cases where someone’s presentation “appears” to be one way, but their preferred pronouns are different. Particularly with nonbinary people who may appear to be presenting in a “typically binary” way, but do not identify that way. So I’d think it’s more about trying not to make assumptions than about invalidating anyone.

With the LGBT club that I was a part of throughout college, at the beginning of the year whenever we did introductions, we’d go around the group and everyone would include their preferred pronouns (if any) while introducing themselves it really ended up being a nice way of not singling anyone out and still validating everyone’s identities.

So I’m just not sure how one would go about avoiding making assumptions without asking people’s pronouns.

[DreamingGames]

@Lycoris

Sensual, I think (which is not the same as romantic). I have read that usually, ace people use the sensual attraction to determine who they date instead of just befriending, so the kind of affection you may feel towards them is likely sensual (not the same as sexual: sensual involves the senses, acts that stimulate them such as hugging, cuddling, holding hands, something purely aesthetical, etc.). I must add, sometimes it’s a bit hard for allosexual people to differentiate the sensual/sexual aspects.

Sigh, I wish I could feel sensual attraction. I so like the idea of being able to touch and kiss and not just go. _Okay, it has been three seconds now, can I abort the kiss? Is it too soon. Hey they sky is blue. Shut up brain and focus. I want to enjoy sensations and touch.

Or at least have an aestecthic to attraction to people. I so want to be able to say that person is pretty.

But nope, my attraction to people is purely emotional. I now the different between a crush and a friendship because it is different.

(So jealous at those who can feel sensual attraction.)

[Snoe]

@ashestoashes018

is. I can…sorta understand with visual games, because creating an entirely different model can costs thousands of dollars, not to mention a third voice actor – and that’s just to provide a “general” nonbinary option. This isn’t getting into trans, demi, etc. people. It could quickly start to get in the millions – just for character creation.

Well there is a way around these costs but it’s a step backward that very few game developers consider.

My personal favourite, the ‘Silent protagonist’ no voice over required. Though ‘other voiced characters’ is another matter unless you pull back to text based convos but thats not likely.

As per body types, and character models, I’ve only come across two titles that you could effectively genderbend within.

Dragons Dogma:
The create character and animations were brilliant and seamless while story was very very loosely knit. But when building your characters base model there wasn’t much you couldn’t do. Though the down fall being you still had to start with a male or female base. Still you could effectively design a male with a girlish figure and female with a manly figure. The majority of the armor suited both sexes (save some special items).
DR also let you alter your character posture (made a very fun difference with the right character build)

Saints Row 2
Actually had sliders controlling the gender. As in one end was male slide it over far enough and the body morphed to female. And in SR2 you could choose movement styles! Like the way they walked And the taunts as well. Not to mention ideas no holds barred when it came to clothes shopping and self styling.

Between the two they still held the traditional labels but being given the freedom to blur the provided lines.

[Lycoris]

@ashestoashes018

For example, @Lycoris’ WIP includes really intricate sexualities – certain characters prefer x hair color or y body type. I think that’s really cool and adds a level of intricacy not yet seen within a CoG or HG – however, there is slight danger there. Someone above mentioned people who only date Asians, due to some sort of…well, fetish regarding Asian culture, Asian stereotypes, or Asian physicality. We have to be careful of that. Having blond hair should not preclude an MC from dating someone who prefers redheads.

Oh, not at all; the sexualities in my WIP are hetero, homo, bi and pan, and just like everyone, each RO has a slight preference for certain traits. Mind you, said preferences won’t exclude anyone from romancing them. For example, Dagger states that he likes redheads, but that doesn’t mean he won’t date a blonde or brunette; it’s just that redheads may get extra *ifs (comments and/or +3/+4 points more in the relationship stat initially).

@DreamingGames

But nope, my attraction to people is purely emotional. I now the different between a crush and a friendship because it is different.

Well, I said “usually”, not always

[ashestoashes018]

@Lycoris

Mind you, said preferences won’t exclude anyone from romancing them. For example, Dagger states that he likes redheads, but that doesn’t mean he won’t date a blonde or brunette; it’s just that redheads may get extra *ifs (comments and/or +3/+4 points more in the relationship stat initially).

That’s why I used you as an example of how to do it correctly

[ashestoashes018]

Just wanted to update to show how easy this is, again – I spent longer adjusting the colors of the variables than I did allowing for sexualities and genders.

also, to show that everybody has more than one option NB people have one NB option, one male, and one female.

[TSSL]

Actually, one other thought on preferred pronouns. I remember one person who, rather than just asking for my pronouns, introduced themself by saying (as well as their name) “My preferred pronouns are they/them! What are yours?”
I wonder if this approach may help? It makes it more of a reciprocal thing. And, bringing it back from life experiences to choice games, I could see it as an easy way to implement pronoun choices for player characters… having another character introduce their own pronouns and the MC reciprocating.