Basically they do something that doesn’t fit their societally assigned gender role but everyone just sort of ignores that because for some reason it isn’t viewed as counting. Historically many groups for women that didn’t marry were exempt from some restrictions; Vestal Virgins had more independant control than other Roman women, for instance. In other cases people just broke gender rules and opted to refuse to acknowledge that they weren’t that gender, like female rulers using masculine titles (I think mostly when the feminine meant/was percieved as meaning spouse of the ruler).
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Oh.
So, I see I’m kinda late to the conversation. If what will I say is the same as what has been mentioned above… so sorry? 
@ChristandJackel I see your problem and it’s all about the worldbuilding.
Totally up to you whether to simply include the nb just in the pronouns or to interweave it into the setting. The only words I can give you: people are very different, and if you consider the whole community, everything is possible.
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As a nonbinary person, inclusion is super important to me. I don’t play any games that don’t have nonbinary as a gender option, not to be stubborn, but because I spend a huge amount of my daily life being misgendered, so when I sit down to play a fantasy game, I don’t want to deal with that.
I’m not sure how much I’d enjoy having certain options closed to me because of my character’s gender. It sounds kinda distressing and sad. On the other hand, if you’re trying to be realistic, then yeah, there are a lot of things closed to me because of my gender, so having that in your game would make it a lot more real.
Having other enby characters in the game is take it or leave it for me. It always makes me happy to see, because it gets cisgender players more educated about using our pronouns correctly, but I don’t care that much. You do you.
Thanks so much making an effort to include nonbinary folks! It really makes a difference for kids like me who don’t see ourselves represented in media that often.
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One thing to note… you’ve been using nonbinary to encompass both nonbinary people and other trans people, but that’s not really what the word means. Trans people can be binary, as long as they identify specifically with one of the binary genders, female or male. It’s a terminology thing, but still, good to bear in mind.
This is the aspect that I would most caution against, except maybe if these stats are only in relation to social things. But if they have to do with the main character’s abilities or personality, they really shouldn’t be affected by things like race, gender, or orientation, because, while those may affect how you’re treated, they don’t determine who you are.
As a related note, I would also advise against anything that specifies the main character’s reactions or thoughts or personality in ways based on those factors, because those are things that people will want to determine based on their actual choices and actions, not just demographics. (I don’t know if that’s something you were thinking about doing, but it’s worth putting out there.)
Moving beyond this, I would also encourage you to consider looking into cultures outside Medieval Europe—or even looking into aspects of Medieval Europe outside the fantasy stereotype, which is often inaccurate or incomplete—into ways that other cultures have conceptualized gender or sexuality. There is a wide range of variation, so a “realistic” setting could work in many different ways indeed. For example, you refer to gender roles as man as provider and woman as caretaker, but this is still very specific to the cultural background that western civilization derives from; even patriarchal societies don’t always divide up gender roles the same ways. And even cultures with strong gender roles have often provided for individuals who live in a role that would typically belong to another one. The recent western model is by no means the most natural or universal.
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While I appreciate your points, none of them are pertinent to what the topic is about.
Specifically: How to organically include nb mcs without it being either jarring or pandering (throwaway “they/them” pronouns without ever mentioning that facet of their life again)
Many of your points have been addressed already as well.
Please elaborate. When you say “whole community” what does that mean specifically?
That is certainly your right. As I asked a few people earlier, the free version of the game will follow the more stereotypical throwaway “they/them” pronouns without any mentioning that facet of their life again. Does that feel more palatable than having struggle and challenge in-game that may potentially lead to a better story?
If more nb players will want that than the aforementioned concepts brought on earlier in this, I may just scrap it in the paid and leave the pronoun one in the free.
Keep in mind, there will similarly be things open to a nb character that are closed to others. If you want to only focus on the losses you have that right but I want it to be clear that every variation of character will have things play out differently. A black female will have things harder than a non black female in certain aspects while having things much easier in others. The ultimate goal is to try to create as unique a playthrough as possible
Interesting. So you don’t care about other characters being non binary? Hmm…
I will say this. This “route” in-game is not about educating individuals that are straight or have no interest in nb individuals. In fact, nothing that has been spoken about will even register on a straight person’s playthrough. All of this is specifically and solely for people that identify in the nb strata.
You are very welcome. Hopefully you enjoy the game when it comes out. 
@TSSL
I appreciate your points though i will say non of them actually help me in the point of this topic.
I think I will actually do a poll to see if people will just want the throw away pronouns and will be happy with that.
Quick Poll aimed specifically for people that play a non-binary character in games. Would you want a game that tries to give a fully immersive experience as a non-binary character or just the standard “they/them” pronouns?
- I want a more in-depth characterization of being non-binary even if that means dealing with negative situations or characters misgendering me.
- I’m fine with just having “they/them” pronouns even if the story never references that part of my life again.
0 voters
see, I’m the opposite. As long as the game isn’t gender locked to a specific gender and I have an option to play one or the other I’m ok with not having the option to be NB.
If the other options have branching story paths/options I think I’d expect the NB option to have it too otherwise, to me at least, it would feel like a cop out. If that makes sense. Like it has just been inserted as an afterthought rather then an actual thought out option.
Also, personally I love a good struggle with the characters identities. whether it’s their sexuality or gender.
This is making a huge assumption by calling it pandering for the gender choice to include just pronouns. Demographic choices can exist to allow a variety of protagonists, where there’s no reason to limit the protagonist to she or he. Active choices—actions—provide meaningful branches based on who the player really wants their character to be. That’s not to say that you can’t write something where demographics have more of an effect, but you certainly don’t need to consider it “pandering” when they don’t, which is also a loaded term that doesn’t mean much on its own: basically just “pleasing people in a way I disapprove of.”
Well, not having demographics change stats or personality or determining reactions is pertinent to the point inasmuch as they are things to steer clear of in writing nonbinary routes too.
And looking into the variety of roles in different is pertinent in the ways @James_Marsh was talking about earlier… you can look at the kinds of roles nonbinary people have had in different cultures and use that to inform your portrayal of them in a fantasy culture.
(I’d also add that, as far as provider/caretaker, for most of human history, in agricultural societies, most people have been providers because everybody had to work hard to get by. That would certainly be true in Medieval Europe.)
The two options as given in the poll aren’t really the only two possibilities.
Edit: Let’s just check with a somewhat more in depth poll. For this, check all options that you would play, not just one:
- I would play a game in which being nonbinary affects only pronouns.
- I would play a game in which being nonbinary has other minor effects (like flavor text, but not branching).
- I would play a game in which being nonbinary has a major effect, but does not entail greater hardship or bigotry.
- I would play a game in which being nonbinary has a major effect, including negative results.
0
voters
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Sorry I don’t think I quite understood your original post. I thought you were questioning whether or not to have enby characters other than the main character.
Being frequently misgendered in the game is a big no for me. If it is just an occasional thing, maybe only done by characters presented as villains, or if there is an option to correct the person respectfully (or not respectfully) then I think that would really enhance the game and make it more realistic. However, if the main character just has to lie down and take it everytime they are called he or she, then that would suck.
Now that I get that by different options for different genders, you don’t just mean negative options, then I think that sounds really fun!
Have you considered using neopronouns for some of the characters? It might be cool for the non-human characters, because it would add depth to the language and culture differences.
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There will be non binary characters in the game. The question is whether or not to have the MC be nb. As this topic has developed, my opinion has shifted back and forth. Currently I am slightly leaning towards not.
@snowgoose Had some really good options for this point. Your character would have the option of correcting the other party members. This would have varied results as would be imagined in a situation. [quote=“Babyfae, post:29, topic:44275”]
However, if the main character just has to lie down and take it everytime they are called he or she, then that would suck.
[/quote]
You’d have that option but you’d also have the aforementioned option.
I have no clue what those are. Are these the “ze/zir” things?
The issue though is that what you’ve described is not what the game will be. I am either going to make a game that disregards the nb situation after asking for your pronouns, or a game that is more in-depth. Options like “only good things and no bigotry” are just not going to happen in the game.
I disagree whole heartedly. Having an option that is never mentioned again outside of initial pronoun choice is nothing short of pandering. If the game world has no interaction with that fact or no-one ever brings it up, how is it any different than picking a binary option, save the aforementioned pronouns?
I’m going to wait until the poll is closed before making a decision about what people actually want.
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The difference is that, for some people, the ability to choose the pronouns they want is valuable and inclusive in and of itself, as a separate good from having a game tailored and branchy based on character creation.
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why not just type your game out and while making different routes test the waters with a nb option? see if doing so fits in with the universe you created? If that makes sense… If not then no harm done, just drop the option and do what you previously had planned? idk, Just my two cents.
Also butting in, yes neo-pronouns are things like that, those things though… I’ve met ALOT of trans/nb people that really dislike them so if you really want to throw like, gender options/pronouns to the wind then go for it if you’re comfortable with that.
Also, for the nb option… if added how would you tackle intimate scenes ( if that’s part of your story.) Do certain characters have set sexuality? are they only attracted to a certain sex? how would you define the mcs bio sex. Are there areas that only a certain sex could enter? things like that I imagine would be a headache for some to type out
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That is exactly how it would be different. If you will be using pronouns throughout the story, or any other gendered language, then this choice will be continually referenced throughout the story, not just at the time of selection. When there’s no reason a story must solely cater to one gender, or even binary genders, then there is no reason for excluding anyone else.
(I am not saying it is wrong to include more extensive differences in paths, but it most certainly is not necessary, and saying that the more negative version is the only way to get more in depth characterization is just not true.)
It is unkind to suggest that accommodating more character types is pandering. Because that’s all it entails: accommodating, letting more in. And calling something “pandering” is not an argument for why it’s wrong. If characters of different genders are being portrayed on an equal footing, then none would be catered to more than the others, none would be getting special favors; they would be getting the same level of attention. Adding in “they/them” options is no more pandering then having in “she/her” or “he/him” options.
There’s no reason it should have to be different in ways beyond pronouns and gendered language, and there is no reason you should have to exclude people, which would be catering to one group over others.
Well, the more nuanced version of the poll should be useful for people who want to know…
…yeah, that.
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Well, like I said, I’ll wait until the poll ends that’ll inform my decision on the issue. I have an idea how it’ll turn out but for the sake of fairness, I’m going to wait until the full results come through.
The innate issue there is that there are a lot of things about nb individuals that I have to account for that aren’t required for binary individuals. Due to the fact that all the other variations will have their own nuance, it is difficult to essentially “tack on” a nb additional route as interactions with various characters will be different as well.
Example: In the first chapters of the game, the player will have the option to have a spouse/lover. If a homosexual character chooses this option, they will have a husband/lover named James who is the Captain of the “King’s Guard”, the elite group of Knights meant to protect the King/Queen (think Secret Service). When the player meets with the reigning Queen, there will be a brief interaction between James and them that is flirty yet professional that alludes to the fact that the player is lucky the Queen is a woman or else he’d have a reason to be jealous.
In that same scenario, if that same gay MC chooses to not have a lover/husband, James will be a closeted homosexual that berates the player for being a “sword swallower”. Depending on certain stats, the player will be able to parse out that James is actually interested in them to which they can react in a number of ways, some of them being humorous (kissing him mid sentence causing James to become flustered) to a bit scheming (making a veiled threat to “out” him in front of the Queen).
This is just one example of the variations in the game. These types of variations will be there for male, female, and different colored players as well. Depending on how this topic thread develops will determine if the nb community will get the same treatment or if I just tack on the pronoun situation in the free mode and leave it at that.
To be fair, the OC wasn’t referring to their character being given neo-pronouns. Just alternate races. Currently there isn’t a reason to do it, though I may consider something like that for the Celestials as they innately aren’t a “he” or “she”
Well, again it depends on how things develop here. I had ideas but it seems more likely than not that I’ll just be adding the pronouns. Most characters do have set sexualities though the MC does act as an exception (“I don’t like men, I like ‘You’”).
Very much so.
I have not said that. I have said that in-depth characterization WILL have negative interactions, not SOLELY negative interactions.
Which was kind of my point. Having options that don’t amount to any change are unnecessary options. That includes options about race or gender.
I have no issue with accommodating more character types, hence why I opened this topic in the first place, rather I have a big issue with creating glib options that don’t matter. You, and many on here as I am seeing, disagree with that sentiment and seem to only want said “they/them” pronouns and feel anything additional is offensive. If that turns out to be the case then I will forego anything additional and simply throw those into the free option of the game so anyone that is so interested can enjoy that. I will say that that will certainly be a disappointment though.
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That was “more negative” as a comparative, that is more negative than difference without bigotry or solely flavor text. As in, that is not the only way to get in depth characterization of a nonbinary character.
A change of pronouns is a change. A change of whether you are referred to as “man” or “woman” or “person” is a change. Changes of titles, changes of address, these are all changes. They do not amount to nothing. They amount to a difference in what characters are allowed to be the protagonist of the story, and if you restrict who the protagonist can be, you are excluding other people.
Why should it have to make more of a difference? What benefit do you get from limiting who the protagonist can be?
Choices can exist just to establish who the character is, and to thereby accommodate that character’s existence henceforth. It is not “glib” for someone to want characters like them to be included as protagonists. It does matter when people who have been left out of the vast majority of what they read get to see themselves in it. This can be more involved, or it can be more cosmetic, but that does not make the latter an unnecessary option to those for whom it is deeply meaningful.
Um…
I’m not arguing that you must not include any differences, rather that a lack of such differences would not constitute pandering. What I would argue against are differences involving personality or the main character’s reactions or abilities based on gender, but it doesn’t sound like you’re including those anyway? And, well, I would also argue against making it so that playing a nonbinary character would give you a worse experience than playing a binary one (same thing with different orientations, etc.), which would be a rather subtler point to determine.
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My bad, That does make sense.
i have zero knowledge of coding but if that’s the case why not make one of those options in the free game where they can insert their pronouns manually? Is that a thing? … I think I’ve seen it somewhere before but now I can’t remember if it was a cog or a different interactive novel…
edit: It was in fact a completely different visual novel. Not COG related so… idk if that’s a thing in uh choice script (? if that is what it’s called, i forgot)
Well, my unhelpful opinions out of the way, looks like you got a lot on your plate but whatever the outcome I’m looking forward to this game.
because by the sound of things that’s the type of game this person wants to create?
(with the example he gave in a reply to me about the mc being a gay male)
i’m probably misinterpreting a lot of this thread… feel free to ignore my dubious opinions.
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I appreciate the vote of confidence. I “should”(?) have a more in-depth demo out by the Halloween timeframe that is more indicative of the game’s play through.
You can do that in Choicescript. As I said before, if the majority of people are more interested in only having the pronouns as the inclusion, then I’ll just have the option for “they/them”.
Then why have the inclusion at all? If it doesn’t matter whether or not a character’s black or white, why have an option asking? This is what seems like an irreconcilable difference between me and the rest of you it seems. For me a choice has to mean something otherwise it has the exact opposite effect of inclusion and representation as you could literally place any thing/one in its place and there would be zero difference.
Again, if people want that, then that will be what is given.
There will be some changes there in-game.
I will say this is fascinating to note. I would take it that you would want an exactly similar gameplay experience regardless of character options.
Ie. A gay character should have the exact same experience as a straight character and a male character should have the exact same experience as a female character.
Would you feel good about playing this despite it being a shorter more limited experience? As this has progressed, I am realizing that a “non-offensive” game should be very true to that. Would you also want the aforementioned option of just putting in your own pronouns rather than having “they/them” forced upon you? To be clear, I’m not being an ass or trying to be smart. The free version of this game will have much of the storied content stripped away so that it is as inoffensive as possible. While I had thought to give that version some level of unique gameplay per the choices, your comments, and the support they’ve gotten, has led me to believe most on this site don’t want unique gameplay in that way, is that fair to say?
The simple reality is that writing a story is very difficult as well as time consuming. Since you’ve come on here, you’ve shown an express disinterest in anything other than the inclusion of pronouns, with a fair number of people agreeing with that sentiment. That would, understandably, lead me to believe that I’d be wasting my time trying to create a storied route for Non-binary individuals as the “best” reaction is a “I’m not arguing that you must not include any differences” while the much more likely response would be me getting somewhat attacked because I wrote that a character didn’t call your character by the right pronouns.
When you add that fact to the fact that of all people that play CoG, non-binary individuals are a relatively small number, it is starting to become more foolish that not to have anything “other” than the pronouns, as of the number that would even be exposed to it, only a modicum of them would actually appreciate the effort.
It very much is if your character is never referenced as that again outside of the surface level pronoun difference. But now I feel like we are just going round and round.
While this has gone a bit off topic from “How can I introduce non-binary MC into the story” to “should I even have a non-binary MC”, it has been fairly informative on what the community wants as a whole. And while it may not be what I want, it will potentially be much easier when dealing with coding and crafting the story so I can’t be too upset 
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It has to mean something for the reader.
You can make 1000’s unique stats about the flavour of food, increasing one via massive branching paths is extremely important as it can change the entire food.
I wouldn’t care much about that though, even if it is super branchy and important.
If the inclusion, by itself, with no extra flavour text, would feel unimportant and meangingless to all players, sure, don’t include it, but remember not everyone wants to be white to make the game easier, black to have bigotry spewed against them, nb to be labelled freaks. Often it’s just they like roleplaying and imagining they are the character, and so although
Story-wise, there would be a large difference to the player.
I thought CoG had a quite a larger proportion of minority groups such as LGBT, asexuals, non-binaries, etc.
And maybe you’re right-- I don’t appreciate the effort when I can play as a man, but it sure as hell stings in the back of my head when I play as woman or character that isn’t ‘me’.
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Tons of choicescript games do that, yeah 
once you have the variable, it’s not too tricky.
Are you saying that you will be changing the main character’s personality based on gender? Or that you will be making decisions for the main character based on gender? That’s really taking freedom of choice from the player—one should be able to determine one’s actions and nature based on active choices, not background, because no one is going to react the same way to their upbringing. Some will go along with it, some will actively rebel, some will just kind of ignore it, and many people will do some combination of all three depending on the situation. Since the main character is already being largely characterized by the player, it makes sense to leave these things to the discretion of the player themself. Few things will turn me off from a game more than seeing that a male character not only deals with masculine assumptions from others, but automatically thinks in a “masculine” way, and the same for female and feminine.
I guess “want” is a bit complex because it is situational? 
I would be perfectly fine with a situation in which gender only affects vocabulary, and sexual orientation only affects whom you romance (it need not even be a choice beyond whom you choose to romance). But there are some situations where I’d be happy for more acknowledgement or difference. For example, I quite like that Slammed! gives a storyline for a female main character to issue a challenge against a sexist male character, engaging more with that issue… but that storyline is not forced on a female main character, either. It’s an added option. Similarly, Hollywood Visionary has, in its code, a bit that is not accessible in play, but which I would quite like to have been included, in which a bigoted character will make veiled remarks about the sexuality of a main character who’s going for a same-gender romance, which is immediately followed by another character being supportive of the main character with a very sweet moment. Those are the kinds of things I’d be happier with seeing.
Yes, this, 100% this! That’s why I didn’t directly answer that point myself… this covers it, really. Having a minority (or female) character in as your protagonist is meaningful for a lot of players. And, well, if the main character is going to be referred to using pronouns, then you either have to assign something or let the player choose, really.
Certainly judging from the active forum-goers, there seem to be a lot.
I guess… this is still a bit of an assertion? Why do you feel like it needs more than that?
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I forgot to mention (I mean just thought of now and explains how I feel better) that not all choices have to do something.
Take the simplest choice, a name.
Aside from some games (cough)Monsters(cough), your name affects no gameplay.
It’s an identifier, helping with immersion and such.
When I use my real name I like the sound of “FairlyFairFighter, the scourge of the land” or something.
I don’t input my name because I want my gameplay to be affected by it, it only affects my own experience.
In this same way, I see race, hair colour, etc. as identifiers.
When I choose my skin colour as brown it’s more because I am brown and it relates better to me, not because I want to experience the amazingly accurate historical stories of people being racist to brown people.
Including an identifier, on its own, is generally well received (just not the 'What hair do you have?" “What length is your blue hair” “What style is your blue hair in?”)
If you really want to both add it and add flavour text, just ensure it doesn’t restrict choices too much (else forcing player to play as something else for a ‘good’ ending) and doesn’t affect ability stats, just how characters react to you.
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