May 2024's Writer Support Thread

Going into a project with the mindset that there is an “acceptable” minimum or lower bounds is problematic.

The number one reason such a mindset is problematic is that it limits your ability to assess and adjust your writing.

I had to have an intervention from one of my most-trusted testers to realize this. He asked me why I was so defensive about a series of changes he and a couple of other testers were advocating for, and my reply was that if I made these changes, I was afraid the word-count would drop below a certain threshold I had in my mind.

His very understandable response was two-fold: if such an arbitary matter was so important then ignore the changes, and if I were to make such changes, was I sure they would lead to the scenario I feared?

I had to be honest and answer that at this point in the writing, I did not know that these changes would lead to the disaster I feared and I ended up making the changes after all.

Despite a few months of worry, the changes did not lead to the results I feared and I was forced to look at what was the real issues that I was worried about.

What I really feared was that a reader would feel like they were not getting their money’s worth. I was projecting this fear into the “size matters” paradigm.

The word count discussion is often used as a suragate by authors to hide what they are really fearful about and it is my view that by framing their fears into such an argument that they are limiting and even hurting themselves when it comes to writing their projects.

I would be careful about trying to conform to either style-books, unless you have access to the version that is being constantly updated. Even assuming that you complete the project in a year, or less, the staff updates their stylebooks often enough that I would bet my bottom dollar that you will still need editing and revisions, even after your pitch was accepted by either CoG or HC.

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I have a question about developing descriptive prose. How?

I can read beautiful, image-rich prose that makes me taste what the MC tastes, smell what the MC smells, feel what the MC feels for days and days without any trace amounts of poetic wisdom rubbing off on my own writing. I can sink my soul into the depths of the emotional brilliance of classic authors like Shakespeare or Twain, feel everything their writing was made to evoke; I can pore into writers like Phillip Pullman and totally immerse myself in the lush descriptions that steal you away from the reality and transport you to Lyra’s world; I know great writing when I see it, I am capable of feeling its power in my heart and in my mind and yet it feels as if none of it ever leaves an impression in my writing. I’m not meaning to infer that writers only get better by being influenced or ‘copying’ other writers, I know that we all have a unique voice within, but I am constantly told that the solution to weak, dry prose is to sit at the foot of the masters and be the best fucking sponge imaginable. Soak it all up, the beauty and the terror and the sacred and the profane and that eventually from that will emerge your own inner voice like you’re finally summoning your Holy Guardian Angel after years spent crossing the abyss.

I don’t know that I believe it anymore. Or at least I don’t know that I can believe it will work–or is working–for me. I read constantly, have my soul stirred on an almost daily basis by the greatness of others’ prose, and yet my words still seem stilted, academic, sterile like the tools of a surgeon before a major procedure.

I can deploy words to make a point just fine. I’m never at a loss at how to express the ideas in my head; they just don’t sing. They never have and at this point it feels like they never will.

Sorry if this is not really the kind of question/post that this thread is for, it just seemed like as good a place as I’ll find to express this and maybe get some different advice from the kind I’ve already gotten in the past.

Thanks.

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this is the place. And what you need is this A Hug.

Explore, Experiment, do crazy stuff. Make short stories. Fan fics. End small projects ask for opinions to friends. End stuff and look what it lands with yourself.

Forgot about likes fame or what cool look this paragraph in social media.

Be yourself We are designing Interactive text fiction in s XXI we have all the freedom to choose be all waky and prose weird be want. Comes with the installation of cs

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@sertrude I think that good taste is ultimately one of the best indicators of a writer’s potential abilities, and you seem to have that part covered. I think taking in good feedback and practice are the two best ways of improving over time from there

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@sertrude – Posting here was more than okay, I think your post brings up a couple of valid support orientated issues.

I am going to address these out of the order you posted, but each are significant and all are important to writers at all stages of their writing.

I will start by saying this: we are sometimes the worst at weighing our writing.

I usually hate reading my writing after I write it; I have intense imposter syndrome feelings that I fight to overcome. I get that you don’t think your writing sings to you … but have you considered that perhaps when it comes to evaluating your own writing, you have a tin-ear?

This first became apparent to me when a reader publicly said that my writing made them laugh, and I had just told another I was rolling my eyes at that exact same passage a few days prior.

I realized then that it is best I go to a few trusted souls to help me paint a more realistic picture of my writing than I painted for myself.

Another thing I would like to pull from your post is the difference between pulling inspiration from classical writers, whether it is Twain or Lovecraft and recognizing that you are writing in a unique time, place and position of your own.

Each of us will write in a way that sings differently, and carrying the allegory further, each of us will have a different audience that listens to our writing in different ways.

Over time, just as music artists evolve, so will we as writers and over time our stories will reflect those changes and evolutions.

Pick any author in the ChoiceScript library and I feel you will see this to be the case

I am grateful that you posted @sertrude and feel you added a lot to this month’s thread.

. :revolving_hearts:

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@sertrude I’d suggest reading some writing craft books that include writing practice exercises. I don’t find them all o illuminating, even some of the famous ones, but different styles of such books will suit different people. I personally like Steering the Craft by Ursula Le Guin a lot.

One exercise I’ve found helpful is to go outside and write a stream-of-consciousness description of the place I’m in, using whatever senses come to mind.

On word counts:

Authors and players worry about wordcount more than they need to (I include myself in this). When drafting, the main reason to think about total wordcount is scope. If chapter size is creeping up, it’s worth thinking about how that’s going to impact the amount of time/effort it’ll take to write the rest.

The other reason is pacing, in either direction, but as has been said a lot, total wordcount and even playthrough wordcount aren’t the most meaningful tools to check this - playtesting is far better. Once an author has a variety of playtester feedback about how the game and pace feels, that’s the time to start trimming things down or expanding on what’s there.

A game will almost definitely end up bigger than expected, so there’s really no need to worry about a wordcount being too short before the draft is finished. Other than to go “woohoo look how much I’m doing!” which is a nice feeling to have - but don’t use it as a way of beating oneself up.

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My first game is still on hiatus, but I’ve managed to squeeze an entry for Diversity Jam out of myself.

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It is cool, hope the jam has helped to write

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I have this weird thing happen to me where I start involuntarily imitating the style of whatever I’m currently reading (it helps with academic writing a lot though). So reading stuff from an author writing the kind of prose I’d want to produce would be a solution, but probably not useable for most anyone else.

Or making sure I’m relaxed enough… the more stressed I am, the drier I write.

I’ve had people telling me how much they enjoy my characters’ sarcasm, in a text I didn’t even realize that was what those characters were doing!

I like setting length goals for myself, they help me focus and make sure parallel paths get equal attention. But I’m a compulsory counter anyway.

You might be interested that I’m using the idea I got for Halloween jam (the mirror one) I didn’t manage to participate in as a part of the full-length game I’m working on!

It was really great to flex my wordcraft muscles for the diversity jam though. I didn’t even realize how much I missed it.

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That’s normal. They’ve country restricted comments for ages. I usually can’t see any new comments now unless I log into a bypass site like app Annie.

While I definitely agree with everything you say :slight_smile: , shorter stories are often not even picked up. (There’s a lot of people saying that won’t even download anything under x words). It is fully possible for a very short have to be non rushed and complete if the premise is tightly controlled, it’s also possible for long games to rush endings and leave things in cliffhangers too. Unfortunately it’s become a trend where more words = more value (probably not helped that by word count alone rather than considering overall quality, with COGs pricing structure this is true.)

It’s problematic but not entirely untrue under a certain threshold. Like I know for a fact that Raishall will do terribly as a HG because its wordcount is under 100k. It doesn’t matter if it’s a good or bad game, it will fail due to that one factor if we’re looking at judging success/failure by downloads/popularity alone. (The short version of this game was incidentally received much better off the CSGs forums. There is a “type” for what a “good HG” is and unfortunately a large word count has become part of that.)

On the other hand I do get where your coming from. It seems that many authors do not want to edit scenes from their game regardless of how essential that are/how much it messes with the pacing because the mantra has become more is more. Chasing the largest word count possible/not wanting to fall below a bar you’ve set for a count can be a hard thing to overcome when you know that most people consider word counts to highly and put what is best for the story first.

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Thanks for saying that. It makes me feel great that my jams help people. It is why I make them in the first place.

Until few days ago I was determined to stop doing them after this year’s Halloween jam.

But many people says jam are helping them so I think I will keep doing them.

Sometimes for a person with anxiety is complicate doing events as you feel you are letting down people or not doing enough.

Hearing that helps people writing melts my heart

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I used to be able to see the comments (or at least more of them) by adding &hl=en to the url, but it doesn’t seem to do the trick anymore. I mean, I get older comments that way, but not newer ones.

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Yes, they claim comments outside your region are meaningless to you, since you know they are outside your region. :roll_eyes:

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Right – I’m logging off the forums again to put all my energy into getting an update out this month. :slight_smile: See you all again when it’s ready.

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Best of luck!

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The Halloween Jam is hands-down my favorite event on the forum, even if I don’t manage to participate every year.

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Yes! So much better to be greeted by a blank page with absolutely no comments instead lest I get influenced incorrectly by someone from another country who’s opinion is obviously not going to be for remotely the same item I want to read reviews for. (I really don’t understand google sometimes. It’s like divide and conquer except I can’t see any advantages to it for them this time :roll_eyes: .)

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Regarding the word count conundrum, I must admit that excluding me loving the concept, word count does tend to play an oversized role in my choice of whether I will or won’t try the game. I am not sure why that’s necessarily the case, but it might be a mix of factors based on what I’ve experienced over the years.

Generally speaking I’ve started to notice a general correlation between good IFs and larger word count, I am not sure if it is just coincidence that the ones I like tend to be the longest or if due to the much higher bar of entry for those huge word count ones. That it sort of acts as a filter of quality where only someone who spends years to get to that large length can upload it. And thus it’ll be much better thsn something that can be written in half year for example.

But putting that aside given it is not always true. I think another reason is that higher word count often implies that your choices matter greatly. Even if you play just once and drop it with the playthrough only showing you but barely a 3rd of that word count, that could still be a full length book where ideally your choices felt like they were varied and noticed enough to feel like your story. Rather than just a different path on a pre-established plotline.

A story that is on what is now the low end. I.E less than 200k words from what I gather, tends to imply either more linear plot, which can put off someone who values input more than straight good writing. Or ir can imply that its too short for you to establish any meaningful plot or characters while maintaining that IF freedom. Leading to a perceived view that it’d be worse quality. Irrespective of quality.

It is sort of the issue that something like say, call of duty faces with its characters. Because their campaigns are so short and they try to cram a full story into some of them. When the writing is not great to hold it up in one single entry as opposed to a series. You end up having character deaths that feel bland or contrived because you didn’t have enough time to fall in love or care.

Spoilerish example

The best example of this is black ops 2, where it’s story, as lovely as it is. Simply would not work had the first black ops not been released. Killing Mason, the person who you played as in the first game. And that decision being one that you aren’t forced to do, would not be such a Holy shit moment if it was just someone you just met an hour ago. Well written or not. It’d still be shocking, but it won’t actually hit you.

It is also the difference between Bowman and Hudson’s death in black ops 1 and 2 respectively. While both entries are well written given the time they take, and both have character deaths at about the same length. Bowman’s death is just shocking and slightly angering, but ultimately forgettable, it merely sets the scene of the desperation in Vietnam. But Hudson’s death hits like a truck because you’ve seen him in the previous game, you’ve felt his highs and some of his lows, his loss is not merely a set note in a plotline but it feels like you’ve seriously lost a core part of your group that cannot be replaced.

But this is also where context comes in, because while this can be an example of word count helping perception, and it no doubt does. It is also an example of when good writing can outweigh that word count. Bowman’s death was not done by the villain, Bowman was a part of your squad but that is about all they are. They are killed by the enemy. Not because they are working for the villain, but just because the vietcong enemies just wanted to watch you play Russian roulette against your will and he didn’t want to. It is shocking. But it doesn’t elicit any great feelings.

Hudson’s death comes as a stark contrast. It comes as a reveal that some of the order he gave you were against his will, misleading intentionally because the villain has him in his grasp. And it goes against what rules the game established up to that point because every other major character that can die. Dies as a direct result of your actions. be it shooting them. Or failing to save them. You can usually avoid it and it is sometimes a clear cut choice. You expect it. You know its the consequences of your action.

Hudson’s death subverts this. It takes a character you knew and trusted and challenges it and then it challenges the notion of power you think you have by leaving you powerless in a in game cut scene where all you can do is watch as he decides to sacrifice himself so you and Mason’s kid can live. It hits strongly not just because of the length of time or word count. But because it directly challenges what you know and expect to that point.

Now what the example shows is the core issue at hand. While word count often helps make your characters more lived in a way outside of writing quality by making it easier to empathize or like them when you’ve spent a good deal of time. It is not directly relative to quality of writing. While this is an obvious conclusion, the emails one gets promoting the new game are unable to show this quality in any real way outside of knowing the author. The only metrics you have are a small list of things you may be able to do in no real detail as to whether they’re done well. The concept and theme the game will follow, i.e Modern day vampires where you’re a newbie vampy. And of course. word count

And in a sea of games set in a fantasy setting. Why spend money on a less than 200k word game which may be a well paced and well written experience that makes every single word hit. When you can get a 700k word one that is just by sheer volume of words. More likely to have satisfying moments with characters and a plotline you can actually sink your teeth into.

Oh and it feels more like you got your money’s worth.

The only solution I sort of see to this conundrum outside of removing word count from the promoting. Is the demo, where someone can play and decide if they like the writing and pacing of a shorter game to take that perceived risk. But I am not well read enough in the usual consumers mind to truly say that makes a great deal of difference for others.

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This brings a few points to mind:

  1. As @Eiwynn said, you’re probably always going to dislike your own writing more than anyone else’s
  2. You don’t have to be as amazing as Shakespeare to write effectively
  3. Reading isn’t enough, you have to practice practice practice

My guess is that you’re already a much better writer than you think. I know I’m often shocked by what people like of mine (I’ve been complimented for a thank you card I wrote once lol). This day and age, writing is a dying art, it doesn’t necessarily take much to stand out. People also aren’t reading as much either and tend to gravitate to simpler styles. I have a hunch that’s why I’ve received so much good feedback on my own writing: I tend to have a fairly straightforward, easy to read writing style. It’s nothing like the greats, but it gets the job done and people enjoy it so I keep doing it. Think JK Rowling…there’s nothing super special about her writing style IMO, it’s just generally engaging and serves her story well.

Of course that doesn’t mean we should stop developing our craft, but I think the worst thing you can do is get discouraged. Keep writing, keep practicing, believe that what you’re doing is fruitful, enjoy the process, and as @HarrisPS noted, it doesn’t hurt to pick up a craft book or two.

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Definitely yes, considering that what Shakespeare wrote was purposefully, well, what one might endearingly call shlock*. People keep lauding and quoting Shakespeare as if it were this high-brow thing, but Shakespeare re-popularised theatre by being the exact opposite: a broad-appeal, high-drama moment playwright. The man wrote a “I fucked your mum” joke in one the plays, ffs.

*don’t get me wrong, it’s GREAT shlock. But just because I absolutely love Pacific Rim doesn’t mean I think it’s an Oscar-winning piece of cinematography for the ages.

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