Limited choices

Game Development
81

Very well said, if it fits the narrative to have the choice locked for us I am certainly not going to hold it against the author or the story itself. I’m not limited by who I am, I’m open to new experiences and viewpoints. I can become immersed in Sabres of Infinity as well as Guenevere. The only time I really dislike it is when the questions feel more forced than anything, like Heroes Rise and its orientation (on government ID, seriously?).

@EndMaster
Aren’t most of your characters gender-locked? I think the Eternal was a dude but the narrative was so unfocused on who they are compared to what they were doing I can’t remember.

82

I think maybe you guys take what I said a bit harsher than I intended.

It is simply like this: Getting a choice about the main character’s gender and sexuality is important to me. Very important. When a game doesn’t have that, much of my interest in it vanishes. And I have every right to decide to not buy something because of that.

@Packet:
See, this is where you lose me. You decided to play Sabres of Infinity anyway, despite it being gender-locked. That’s fine, it didn’t bother you enough to keep you from playing it. What I don’t get is why you call me ‘simple-minded’, simply because having this particular choice is important to me. Cataphrak’s reasoning behind the decision may be sound, I can’t judge that because I haven’t looked further into it, but whatever the reason is, it doesn’t change the fact that the game lacks something I find important.

@FairyGodfeather:
See, when I have a more personal relationship with the author in question, things change. When I talk to them, or even read their posts on the forum, I get to know them. They’re not faceless anymore. It might not get me to buy the end product if I’m not interested, but it does mean that I enjoy seeing them create something they love.
What stops me from changing the code? Laziness, and respect for the author. People can write whatever they want in whatever way they want, it’s their thing. But that doesn’t mean I’ll buy everything.
As for being rude, well, I never saw it that way. And I’m not trying to be hurtful or anything. Ugh, I’m not sure how to explain this…I see no reason to be hurt by that. Maybe because I’ve always assumed that no consumer is ever gonna care about a producer they don’t know and I’ve never expected that of anyone who reads the stuff I write, so I can’t really emphatize with that.

Basically: Write what you want, however you want. I simply reserve the right to not spend money on it if it’s not to my tastes.

83

You know, I do find it amusing that in a game with the supernatural, or zombies rampaging across the world, we’re told that it’s everyone being bisexual that’s not realistic. I’d say that if people are willing to suspend belief in regards to vampires and werewolves existing, and all of your friends having super-powers, or being extra-special, (or whatever), then having everyone being bisexual is a much smaller leap to make.

That’s not to say I don’t respect you for making that choice, My writing rarely contains straight characters. I just think that realism isn’t the right argument for it.

I’d actually love to have meaningful friendships though, without the romance, but with them having every bit as much importance to the plot.

Incidentally, are all those games in which everyone is portrayed as straight, and there’s absolutely no queer characters considered realistic?

1 Like
84

You’re dismissing the potential bounty of a game over the absence of a single, particular choice.

… That being said, we all do have our own personal tastes and interests, so I would be at fault to criticize your opinion, no matter how much I may disagree with it.

I apologize for calling you simple-minded, and let us agree to disagree.

85

@Blackrising I think that’s part of the problem, in so much as you’re speaking about a generalised “faceless author you don’t know” but you’re actually speaking to people who are authors, with faces that you do know. So they get hurt.

I’m of the same mind. I won’t buy, or even play, games that don’t provide choices that I’m interested in. It’s personal preference. There’s games by a great number of forum-goers that I won’t play since they’re not to my tastes.

86

@Packet

Some choices are important. I think the choices of gender as well as sexual orientation are extremely important in Choice of Games. It’s why I play games on this site and rarely look at any other interactive fiction. I know that most of the games here will be inclusive, and there’s plenty of games to play.

There’s so many games out there and time is limited. Sabres of Infinity isn’t to everyone’s tastes. I can appreciate that it’s an extremely well written game that so many people love. But if I just want to read stories about being a woman, having adventures, then I’m never going to enjoy Sabres of Infinity. Just as if I’m only interested in playing games where I’m a gay man, then I’m not going to want to play Cassandra or Guenevere as well written as they are.

It’s just personal taste. And yes, personally, I rarely read anything that has a straight cis-male protagonist. (I get enough of them on tv shows and movies), Just as I don’t generally read anything that’s not sci-fi or fantasy. I’m far more interested in reading fiction with queer content in it than that which erases my existence. Just as some people will completely avoid any books that have that sort of content.

There’s so many books out there to read and so many games out there to play and time is a short and precious thing, we can afford to be picky. And if we miss out on an awesome story, then it is our loss, but only a small one since there’s so many other awesome stories out there too.

3 Likes
87

Yes the irony of my statement is not lost on me. Realism is just one reason but also I like the fact that a characters sexuality depends on themselves as opposed to my wishes. I don’t mean I only want straight characters but when creating the NPCs some came with defined sexualities; Victor for example will always be straight as that is how his character grew. Lakota on the other hand is a lot more free spirited and being bisexual suits him.

One of my planned changes is to have an additional point in the stats to track relationships. So now you have colleague - friend - best friend - love interest - girlfriend/boyfriend

88

Yes, you’re right. -sigh-

Hey, I feel for ya on this.
Not trying to make this awkward, but my interests usually cater towards queer content as well.

… Off-topic, but how do you have 2868 posts, but you’ve only given out one “like?!”
Hey, like, gimme a “like” so I can totally be your 2nd!

But, again, you’re right.
It’s not my place to criticize the personal interests and tastes of others.

Very graciously put, FairyFeather.

1 Like
89

Because I joined the forums long before likes became a thing. I’m so old-school I’m not used to all these new-fangled likes and whatnot. It’s hard enough for me getting used to these new forums without all these fancy new things. But since I’m the Fairy Godfeather your wish is my command, there you go, a like. :slight_smile:

I know I’m likely missing out on some good stories. I’ve never read Harry Potter, for instance, despite a number of my friends thoroughly enjoying the series and suggesting it. I did read Lev Grossman’s The Magicians, which certainly has heavy Narnia and Harry Potter influences. I didn’t like the protagonist, but I loved his character journey throughout the three books and how it serves as a deconstruction of the typical Gary-Stu Chosen One protagonist. But I think the main difference for me was that the protagonist has a gay best friend in The Magicians, (who I may have disliked as much as the protagonist mind you) whereas in Harry Potter there’s no gay characters.

Okay I’m getting sidetracked.

Isn’t it great that there’s so much choice here in what games we play and plenty of things for everybody to like?

1 Like
90

Everyone’s entitled to their opinions and some seem to steer up more of a commotion I guess. We could simply choose to not care, but I can understand boredom and that itchy feel to make ourselves be heard.
I, for one, appreciate a more detailed, locked character, as I’ve noticed that gender choices and sexual preference don’t really matter in most games and just create additional workload without more actual content. It’s usually just replacing he with she or vice versa.
With just one character to focus on they just naturally get more detailed since there’s less of a workload (or same, but less spread out).
Still, I have preferences. Though I liked sabres of infinity, I wished I could’ve played a woman. It’s just easier to identify myself with a female figure. However, the writing was immersive, without plot holes and I could still decide on most of my perspnality, which defines a character more than sex and orientation.

With that said… I forgot where I was going with all that. (x
But I think I’ve written enough anyways.

1 Like
91

I know you don’t want only straight characters and that’s appreciated. I do also appreciate that sometimes NPCs just tell you what their sexualities are and that’s that and it’s best just to go with the flow.

I think the everyone is bisexual can be handled well, and also poorly. To use Zombie Exodus as the example (sorry JimD) I liked how both Mindy and Heather referred to past relationships with both men and women. It was acknowledged that they liked both, Emma mentions it, and I think Mindy even makes a mention of attraction (or lack thereof) to Heather. That felt real.

Devlin does mention a past lover the same gender as you are. (I’d have rather he was bi as well admittedly.) However, in his first scene he does ogle Heather and she’s the only person we actually see him ogling, so the assumption would be he’s attracted to women.

With Tom there’s none of the history. The only past relationship we know he’s had is with his wife. If Tom makes a move on you I don’t think you can go “I’m straight! I thought you were straight too!” the same way you could tell Heather you were gay. I felt the relationship with Tom needed just some acknowledgement of you both being men if that was the case and it felt a little flat because that wasn’t there, because it was treated exactly the same as if you’d been female. I think, in that case, it might have played more realistic if it had been an option only for women. I’m glad it wasn’t though. Today I have this theory that Tom’s seduction of the protagonist, regardless of their gender, is more to do with personal power and trying to gain control over them, and less to do with who he’s actually attracted to.

Anyway, I do think it’s possible to make a game where everyone is bi is actually realistic. I think it’s possible to do it in a manner where it lacks realism too. (See Tom).

92

I’ll say that those choices do matter. Even when they don’t matter in the actual game, when they don’t change any sort of content, they do matter to the player. If the choices don’t do anything at all, might as well just let us choose what we want as opposed to provide no choice at all.

It may be additional work and the cause of a few bugs but I do think it’s worth it. And a lot of that work can be minimised by using find/replace.

It’s worth it, because this is the only site where I can play a genderqueer dragon raising eggs with their lover. Or a gay superhero who’s trying to save the world. Or a female captain, in a navy filled with just women, in love with her rival. And there’s no other site where I could play a game where I’m a wrestler, and the ending where I get to kiss my best-friend/rival is far, far more of a reward and satisfying than becoming the Number 1 wrestler and getting some shiny trophy.

Sometimes it is just a pronoun switch but it matters so much when there’s nowhere else you can play these sorts of games. Where there’s just such a dearth of these sorts of stories. Where in most games, on most sites you’re told you don’t matter, you’re excluded, you’re a minority and the choices aren’t important so we won’t let you make them at all.

So they might not matter in terms of the game itself. They might change nothing. My lesbian starship captain might be treated exactly the same as her straight male counterpart, but that in itself is wonderful. No need to deal with homophobia or sexism. Just some fantastic escapist fantasy. I love that. I love that it can matter not at all in terms of the narrative, and yet matter so much to me as the player.

4 Likes
93

For me, the availability of gender and orientation doesn’t matter much.

When playing Choice of Games (or various first-person video games) I lead my MC, who is usually someone very different then me, through the game’s world. When I replay games, I love to see how different stats lead to different outcomes, and gender and orientation are for me just two variables among many. If they matter, for example in Choice of the Vampire, I highly welcome them, if they lead to small differences, I see them as more of an easter egg, and if they don’t matter at all, they’re just a formality, just like the name selection.

Therefore, I’ve equally enjoyed Sabres of Infinity and Guinevere, just as I equally enjoyed the Hobbit and Harry Potter and The Hunger games and Divergent. I’ve also played through all of those games that I’ve installed with all available gender and orientation combinations.

Nevertheless, even before this discussion I’ve noted that many people here have a very different approach and see the MC as more of an avatar of themselves, and want them to share as many traits as possible. Since gender and sexuality are very important to define one’s person for most people, I can understand that they are disappointed if they can’t customize these traits in a game.

I think everyone has can disapprove a game for the lack of choice on that, just as I dislike certain games because of other factors, like replayability, quality of writing, setting and plot etc.

I don’t expect anyone to like ALL games published under the Choice of Games or hosted Games label, I think nobody does. I think it’s good that CoG has many different games so that everybody will find SOME that he or she likes to play.

In order to find the right games, I strongly advise everyone to play through the demo (or the WIP) before buying it, and doing this should be suggested in the game description if mentioning genderlock doesn’t work.

94

Yes, you may be right. If anyone here did get hurt by my statemend, I apologize for that. Rest assured that, even if I’m not interested in your game because it is gender-locked, I still wish you the best of luck.

1 Like
95

Very well said. Especially the last paragraph, because I absolutely feel the same way. Realism and drama might be enjoyable once in a while but often, it is just so very nice to get to escape to a world where I can be a studly pirate or a badass cowboy and it absolutely doesn’t matter what gender I play as or who my character happens to be attracted to.

The drama in these stories is generated by what I DO, not what I AM and I honestly love that.

1 Like
96

Aw, tell ya what! I’ll treat ya to a drink in the virtual tavern over yonder!
(Pats your back and gives you a bro-hug)

Yeah, totally!
… But you haven’t read Harry Potter?!
(Puts hands on face and tries not to scream)

Wellllll, technicalllllllly, there is one gay character in Harry Potter and it’s Dumbledore.
J.K. Rowling revealed that little tidbit at Carnegie Hall in an interview, but the story treats Dumbledore as if he is celibate (well, he actually does become celibate after certain events transpire).

Thankssss for the like! I tagged ya back in return! c:

97

Much appreciated, but I must warn you that I am a delicate flower and any sort of alcohol whatsoever will probably lead to awkward moments I won’t remember in the morning. :wink:

98

I think that one gay character is extremely problematic, but for reasons that will definitely derail this thread. I am half tempted to start a new thread but probably won’t.

99

Amen! As I believe we said on that other old thread (from before the forum had a like button). Oh, and this one too.

I’m always glad when people (especially my fellow privileged folk) say that they enjoy reading stories from a protagonist perspective not “their own.” Fostering that kind of discomfiting dislocation is one of the virtues of literature; it can foster greater empathy, open-mindedness, etc.

That said: there are plenty of people for whom social discomfort and dislocation (around, say, race, class, and gender) are an everyday life experience. I don’t think they’re under any obligation, moral or aesthetic, to seek out more of that experience in their entertainment reading. Privileged people who feel good about themselves for reading/RPing stuff that stretches their comfort zones ought to be careful not to get judgmental with people who don’t live in a “comfort zone” in the first place.

And as I’ve said before, I think it’s a mitzvah for authors of interactive fiction to give readers the choice to flip pronouns and orientation without changing anything else. In a world where most protagonists in popular entertainment remain straight males, and where the growing number of female and non-straight options are too often shoehorned into stereotype (sexy, sassy, etc), it’s a breath of fresh air to have stories where the characters aren’t determined by their sex or orientation – where we can have the same adventures regardless.

2 Likes
100

I have to point out that Dumbledore was gay. :stuck_out_tongue: Oh xD I see that was already mentioned.