Limited choices

Sorry to reply spam here,

You statement that every game that has gender/orientation lock in them states so in the first few pages is faulty. What those games do is present choices which lead the character into building, for example, opposite sex relationships. That is not however an automatic cue(in games which are founded on the mutability of choice) that paradigm will be upheld throughout the game. Just because you choose to find a female character attractive at point in the story does not automatically exclude your character from being bisexual, or for instance discovering latent homosexuality later in the story.

If something people expect to be their choice, is not, then it should be blatantly stated outside of the narrative paradigm in order to preserve the integrity of that narrative.

@Letra Many sci-fy games here make the MC always human although alien races exist there, unlike the Fleet allows you to sustomize the MC’s alien race. And an example of limited choice for human nations could be Choice of Broadsides: while it allows a full gender switch, the MC is always an Albionian and never from the opposing nation Gaul.

And I didn’t mention religion in my post, for the reasons you’ve pointed out here :wink:

The gender identity is actually not important at all in multiple games, both official and hosted. In some of them, it doesn’t affect anything except the gender pronouns, for example Choice of Dragon or Marine Raiders.

For the sexual orientation, are you refering to Fatehaven? There, the “of course” is supposed to show that the MC is interested in one gender only, this choice sets the gender of all ROs. Apparently the MC there can’t be bisexual or closet gay, but the same is true for official Choice of Romance too (though the choice of preferred gender there is more obvious).

Actually you can be bi in the affairs of the court series. It’s admittedly only a choice in the third game. But even if you’ve previously only been interested in women, there are two male characters in that third game that you can end up married to. (Admittedly one’s a forced marriage).

Admittedly Choice of Games does/has had a problem with allowing bisexual options, I think it’s mostly a matter of practicalities though especially in games that set npc genders to that which you’re attracted to.

I’m also going to say that being able to choose your gender is important, regardless of whether or not it has an impact on anything but pronouns. Too often male is considered the default, and anyone who doesn’t want to play male is still stuck doing so because gender supposedly doesn’t matter so you might as well be a guy. I like that Choice of Games provides that choice, because it changes a player’s perceptions if nothing else and the player is every bit as much a part of the story.

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I believe doing that would sully the integrity of the narrative paradigm itself.

But, this is the opinion of a person who doesn’t mind seeking pleasure in a story from a position of discomfort. (Being myself.)

For that reason, I cannot criticize you for your opinion; I commend you, instead.

This trend amongst Hosted Games isn’t actually anything new.

I too would like a note on all hosted games as to whether they allow you to choose your gender, and your orientation, or not. I’d also like to know if they include romance elements, extreme violence, death and whatnot. I’d be amused by a “Warning: White Heterosexual Male Protagonist!” tag.

I can remember being disappointed to discover that hosted games don’t provide the same experience that the official games do. That was right back in the beginning though when there was a definite disparity between the quality of hosted games and that of the official choice of games.

I like that Choice of Games does provide a platform for Hosted games. That there are all sorts of games there. But crucially I like that there are a number of hosted game authors who also embrace the values of the choice of games.

Authors who’d not normally consider the importance of allowing for a female protagonist, for instance. Or at least considering the reasons why they will choose a set gender. There are authors who no longer assume heterosexual male as default. Who’re willing to write games which will let you play characters that aren’t straight. I think Choice of Games, and these forums, have opened people’s eyes a little in that regards.

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[quote=“FairyGodfeather, post:25, topic:5228, full:true”]I too would like a note on all hosted games as to whether they allow you to choose your gender, and your orientation, or not. I’d also like to know if they include romance elements, extreme violence, death and whatnot. I’d be amused by a “Warning: White Heterosexual Male Protagonist!” tag.

I like that Choice of Games does provide a platform for Hosted games. That there are all sorts of games there. But crucially I like that there are a number of hosted game authors who also embrace the values of the choice of games.

Authors who’d not normally consider the importance of allowing for a female protagonist, for instance. Or at least considering the reasons why they will choose a set gender. There are authors who no longer assume heterosexual male as default. Who’re willing to write games which will let you play characters that aren’t straight. I think Choice of Games, and these forums, have opened people’s eyes a little in that regards.[/quote]

I believe you’ve commented upon the issue soundly.

I’d like to believe that an author has the right to write about anything he or she may wish, but the values that the typical ChoiceofGames labelled works contain place me in conflict with my own convictions.

Yes, we really do need more female protagonists, and I mean this sincerely.
The Seven Winds
… And I wish the above WIP would be completed.

@FairyGodfeather But the third part was released a long time after the first two, and Fatehaven might similarly have a sequel that allows bisexuality.

Why I admire choice of games intention to create games with more diversity, I think that the policy of making only games that offer a choice of gender official backfires somewhat because it will also prevent games with a default female MC, like @jeantown’s Guinevere or @LadyCass’ Cassandra, from becoming official. For me as a player it doesn’t really matter if a game is hosted or official, but some authors are apparently concerned about the prices and marketing connect with this.

Good games as they are, I don’t think those games should be official games, at least not as they stand now. (Incidentally there’s a bit more to becoming an official game than just offering a choice of gender. The Choice of Games team do take an active role in editing, and there’s a lot less freedom (although a lot more support).)

The authors are free to do what was done with Choice of Romance. Choice of Romance is really Choice of Anne Boleyn (which was previously mentioned on the blog many years ago as one of the future games https://www.choiceofgames.com/2010/03/vote-for-our-next-game/). I’d actually love to see more hosted game writers making those sorts of changes, gender-flipping the world even if it goes against what they might think would work.

I haven’t looked at Cassandra. I think Guinevere could stand up to the gender-flip. however it’s extra work and not the story the author wants to tell. I get that, my only (marginally) finished project had a fixed protagonist. Julia Caesar had to be female.

One of my long-term projects is a retelling of another Arthurian myth. I had extensive notes on making that Knight a woman in disguise. It’s a story that I found fascinating, the idea of this woman donning her brother’s suit of armor, taking his name, riding to Camelot, making a name for herself and to support Arthur. But the more I explored it the more I realised that it was two different stories and that I just wasn’t interested in telling both sides of the coin. So I do understand the desire for people to keep fixed genders, especially if you have a protagonist with a set name.

Similarly I won’t write protagonists that aren’t queer. And I can understand, on a certain level that some people are uncomfortable writing such relationships. Or they might be content to write bisexual/lesbian female characters, but find it awkward to write men who’re attracted to men.

I’m wandering off on a tangent though.

The first two parts of Choice of Romance were written a long time ago. I like to think that they have actually evolved and are getting better at their inclusivity (even if it’s just me flailing about going ‘bisexuality exists!!!’)

I think I remember Jason saying that in Choice of the Vampire he’d originally had the Sylas romance locked if you romanced Clotho (I may be imagining this) but then he decided there was no reason for it and allowed you to romance both if you wanted. So even the mighty Jason learned from the start of his game and finishing it.

I wrote a blog post on Guenevere and genderlocked protagonists a while back. I approve of CoG’s requirement for genderswappable protagonists in their official line, but I’m also grateful that there might still be a place for my female-protagonist game.

I agree that the game descriptions should always clarify whether or not the protagonist is genderlocked, but I’ve had the impression that most of the Hosted Games do make that fairly apparent.

I fully support the whole “being accessible to everyone regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity” principle as being pretty darned important. As a comic book fan since childhood, I’m just now realizing how a huge majority of the characters, until recent times, were depicted as straight white men and women, and how off-putting that must have been to kids who identified differently.

From the beginning, I knew that Community College Hero would give readers a lot of flexibility in gender identity and relationships. I wanted to cast a wide net and invite everyone in who might enjoy an offbeat story. And yes, it’s difficult for a straight white guy who grew up in the Reagan era to write scenes/dialogue with gay or lesbian encounters, but I hope folks appreciate my attempts even if they are somewhat clumsy.

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I’d actually be interested in discussing that blog post in more length. Unfortunately I don’t have a tumblr account, nor do I plan to get one. Would you be willing to start a discussion (on a separate thread) here about it?

@FairyGodfeather…lol! :smile:

If it makes it easier for people to choose the games they like based on a label, I’m fine with that. I think with most games you should be able to tell whether it is gender-locked by the end of the demo…as for romantic options, that might not be the case.

I would just hate to see CoG decide not to host a game, or not to publish a game under the “Choice” label, because it IS gender-locked. I think Guinevere is a fantastic game, and I don’t see how it could be written any other way. Ditto with my own Cassandra WIP… I didn’t want to write a game like Choice of Romance, borrowing a historical plot but changing the character parameters. I wrote/am writing the game I wanted to play…as Cassandra. (Selfish of me, but others seem to like it too.) It’s the same reason I like Guinevere. I like playing as that particular character, but being able to romance Morgana. Or replay it and romance Lancelot. I’d also play your game with the chance to be a female knight-in-disguise. :slight_smile:

I think most games that are submitted are approved for the Hosted Games label. I’ve not heard of one being rejected yet.

It’s not a matter of quality. There’s a certain aesthetic they’re looking for in Official Choice of Games, and part of that is related to being able to choose gender.

What I’ve played of Guenevere is fantastic. I’ve not played Cassandra so I can’t comment on it. However, they’re not the type of games that Choice of Games are looking to publish. I would be amused though if you and Jean got together, and pitched to Choice of Games and said “hey, we’ve had enough of His-story it’s time for Her-Story! What say you start a new imprint for us?” The only thing I have to offer to that is Julia Caesar, which is historically inaccurate and I fear will never be properly finished.

Female knight in disguise won’t be written, since it’s the tale of the male knight that intrigues me more in that regards. Actually it likely won’t get finished, but since it’s been in my notebooks for five years, who can tell.

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@FairyGodfeather I’m glad you think the blog post is worth discussing! At the moment, I’m not sure I’m up to starting/managing a whole thread on an issue that I’ve resolved for my own game, but I’d love to chat with you about it via PM if you like.

So here are the problems:

There are no aliens from the globulan 6 system(to my knowledge) playing choice of games. So to compare a game that is exclusive in the sense that it cuts out the possibility of the game character being representative of the very real person playing it to a game not allowing you to assume a fictional role as an alien is a false analogy.

Fatehaven actually does let you be gay. I’m not sure about bi-however.

The issue of gender/orientation does not apply to games where gender/orientation are a non-issue, because quite obviously in those cases it is a non-issue. It does matter in games where those concepts play a role, which is again what this conversation is about.

I’ve played your WIP and it’s fun. This post was about notifying potential buyers of certain qualities games have, not about excluding games from publishing because of those qualities. I’m not sure if you somehow thought that was the case.

Well, I also mentioned Choice of Broadsides, while I don’t know if any French people played it, it’s certainly possible.

I know that Fatehaven allows gay, but I think it doesn’t allow bisexuals, as all three ROs are same gender. And since you’re not referring to Fatehaven could you please name those games which limit the choice of sexual oreintation?

Since your concern is to notify potential buyers, I agree that mentioning the gender of the MC in a genderlocked game in the game’s descripütion is difinitely useful, but your proposal to use an acronym like GOL is a bad one. It should be explained in a sentence fully understandable for non-insiders like “In this game you play a young man who…”

and therefore my question to the CoG staff: Are there any formal guidelines on what should be included in a game description?

@WulfyK the straight answer to your last question is no, there are no guidelines given by CoG on writing descriptions for Hosted Games, that is entirely down to the author, CoG merely gives a character limit, which is very tight actually!

@AlexClifford1994 Was this limit the reason why you didn’t mention the gederlock in the description of Murder in Berlin?

Same question to the authors of all other genderlocked games too.

     I suppose I just have a complex with this entire issue.

     Gender-locking and predestined orientation have never rubbed me in the wrong way; I’ve always viewed these elements as guidelines in which to experience a story by the author’s preferred design. If I am to play as woman named Jane Doe, who is only interested in pursuing relationships with the opposite gender, then so be it. If I am to play as a man named John Doe, who only displays an intimate interest in his fellow man, then I have no qualms about the restrictions.
     I am amicable to being pleasantly surprised at a story’s development without receiving any prior knowledge regarding the recurring elements and themes within the plot. In that essence, I do not typically aspire to achieve enjoyment with any work of interactive fiction; instead, enjoyment is a state of being that I fall into. I am most pleased at finding pleasure within plot elements that I would otherwise find unpleasant.
     Of course, the above paragraph isn’t necessarily 100% true if I have paid for the right to experience the story. I admit, I do have my own standards and would not think of venturing into a plot riddled with grisly, bodily mutilation or distasteful, sexual fetishes. For this reason, I agree that the existence of gender-locking and predetermined orientations should be, among other elements, clarified within a game’s description or in a form of author’s notes.
     If not, these elements should be clarified within the opening narrative of the game relatively quickly. The nature of the game should be made apparent in the demo of the game, above all else.