Interactive Fiction and what it is/is not

General
42

I don’t think fixed or open protags have anything to do with the level of an if interactive scale nor does it determine if the quality of the story is good or not because of one or the other… its all about how the author utilizes the two concepts . i also disagree with the whole black and whitening of fixed and open protags. they tend to sometimes overlap. a story can have an open protag that is already fixed in some ways.

example. player chooses race gender and all that comes with a standard character creator. player then gets to choose things like origins that makes them fixed and established in the setting. the narrative then sometimes remembers set origin and might even do something with it.

games like choice of magic and the infinity series does this very well.
also open protagonists can have depth to them if you try to write them that way. instead of writing them as if they are in a simulator game .

the problem with open protags in most cog|hg is that they drop you in the story rather than fist making a character a part of the world through player choices before they then process to thrust you into the story.

by and large people don’t want the author to rewrite a character for their own joy. it just that people tend to sometimes suggest to the author that they should allow multiple player styles since the the author has established that the player is an open protag like @MeltingPenguins said

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43

I would like to emphasize that there are two groups of people who like games with blank-page MC:
a) Self-Insert lovers and
b) People who’d like to create their own OCs

Some people treat IF games as a creative exercise, and those people would prefer a lot of flavour option and customization not only in hairstyles or genders but also would like to customize the personality of MC. Some people want choices that matter, to feel like their character is real and present in the story and has agency - and that should be ok.
Not everything is for everyone.

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44

@mireo I hope you’re listening too. Otherwise, you weren’t asking a question in your initial post. A lot of smart and experienced people have given of their time to try to engage with you. To disengage because you’ve had your say might keep you from getting what you said you wanted.

The surest way to get exactly what you want is to write it. You seem passionate enough about your views and the medium that I would encourage you to try. You might even discover some of the answers to your own questions regarding design decision. To be meta, writing a choice-based game sometimes feels like playing one with a lot more work and steps added. You have to decide about the decisions and such.

In the broadest sense, there are few people into IF (relative to some other things) and fewer still into those coded in ChoiceScript. I see it all the time that people create lines of division in already small groups, not realizing they have far more in common with who they are speaking to than the differences they would dwell on. Or: perhaps don’t fight with the few friends there are to be had in this small world.

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45

If I’m understanding correctly, I think what @mireo was first bringing to attention was that people want blank slate PCs.

Personally, I’d have to disagree, and in looking at some popular titles, I think more fixed stories can be well-received, also.

The concept of a blank slate PC is fraught, anyway–I think @RedRoses is right in saying that the vast majority of PCs are not true blank slates. I’d go further and say that I’ve literally never encountered a PC here that I would call a true blank slate. Every WIP, Choice, or Hosted game I’ve ever played (and I’ve played lots haha) have some PC backstory–maybe a family member NPC, an initial life setup (in school, has a job), etc. I honestly don’t think it’s possible, within our corner of IF, to create an entirely blank slate PC. At least, I personally can’t imagine how it could be done.

I also agree that authors are not owed an audience. In my experience reading the WIP forums, though, people seem incredibly open and supportive; I’m full of anxiety working on my first WIP, but worries about a mean or cruel reception has never been part of that. I think us authors are very lucky to have this community as our sounding board!

And even if feedback is occasionally disappointing and a user says they aren’t interested, ultimately it’s up to the author what they do with that. TBH, the story I’m writing currently is as much a story for me as it is for anyone else.

(And for any authors who are experiencing setbacks or feeling discouraged, there are monthly support threads for writers. The April one is already busy, and the environment there is super positive and helpful!)

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46

Was that all about The Aeon WIP? As far as I remember, its author was fine with the feedback and none of the readers demanded a “blank slate”.

Readers may give a feedback about the story feeling railroaded or lack of meaningful and impactful choices. But none of it actually stops authors from writing their story in the desired way. There are games published both in COG and HG which don’t have a choice every two pages, detailed customisation of MC’s hair length, many stats, romances, etc. And they still have their audience who enjoys exactly this pace of storytelling.

However, if we are talking about something where the reader only turns pages without ever making a choice, then it’s not an interactive fiction as it simply doesn’t have interactive element in it. It still may be a nice story, though. But I don’t think that any of WIPs had such extreme limitations.

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47

“@mireo I hope you’re listening too. Otherwise, you weren’t asking a question in your initial post. A lot of smart and experienced people have given of their time to try to engage with you. To disengage because you’ve had your say might keep you from getting what you said you wanted.”

I did ask a question and I engaged with people, got loads of feedback. I am happy with it.

“A lot of smart and experienced people have given of their time to try to engage with you. To disengage because you’ve had your say might keep you from getting what you said you wanted.”

I know? I am enjoying the conversation. Me disengaging has nothing to do with this and all to do with anxiety. I still enjoy the conversation wherever it is. But you go girl I guess.

“The surest way to get exactly what you want is to write it. You seem passionate enough about your views and the medium that I would encourage you to try. You might even discover some of the answers to your own questions regarding design decision. To be meta, writing a choice-based game sometimes feels like playing one with a lot more work and steps added. You have to decide about the decisions and such.”

I am not trying to change anyones mind. I tried to have a conversation.

" You might even discover some of the answers to your own questions regarding design decision."
Sure, thanks.

Sure, I could write an entire novel if I wanted. I just want to read a story where the author gets to do their thing without everyone going “i want this, I want that”. i realise I might be in the minority but shrug

Not apologising for this, loads of people talked to me and I am loving it.

48

You want a story about the author who never received criticism or do you want an author to write a story and then for nobody to have an opinion about how to improve it?
Because if it’s the latter then that would have to mean nobody would read it - you might think this forum is harsh (I’m not entirely sure why) but the online reviews won’t be bound by any code of conduct so the only way to ensure the author will never get criticism is for the author to never publish their work.
That’s just how it is in creative world - you put yourself out there.

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49

If you go to a forum in a written community requesting feedback and opinions. You should expect input and views from the people that are kind enough to reply to you

I think some authors only want to been told how wonderful they are and how everything they do is perfect and how much everyone loves them and How if they publish, all will be love and hugs.

Then markets reviews come, and the reality hit those. People like a sledgehammer. To point cause severe anxiety and depressions.

Because those authors have isolated themselves in a resonance chamber that doesn’t allow them to check out the reality of the market or improve at all.

Choose not to receive honest feedback is a valid option, a terrible one. But valid. But don’t go asking people for feedback if you don’t want to hear about it.

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50

Hello, folks.
Please avoid heating up the stew by specifically replying to a specific person, especially if nothing new is brought to the discussion. The OP stated what has been said, many of us stated what has been said, you did (or not, but so did I), and there is no need to hammer down the nail if it’s already planted else you break the wood.

A lot of terrible metaphor, I know, but please keep the discussion civil.

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51

Well people will always Tell you what they think could improve a story, it’s their opinion. But nobody can force the author to please their wishes.

Normally a “thanks for the input, but that is not possible”, or “that does not fit my impression of the Story” should be enough.

In my opinion it is always good to get other opinions, even when you afterwards decide to not take that input. You Heard and considered it, which also is a good Progress.

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52

Adding onto this:

The type of feedback we’ve come to expect here on the forum is, as previously mentioned, tailored in such a way to prepare not only a WIP for publishing, but also prepare an author for app/webstore reviews. However, we should keep in mind that not all authors intend for their stories/games to published. Hence the creation of the Hobby Project category: #game-development:hobby-projects.

We have only a scant few projects in there at the moment, so nothing can be definitively said about the type of feedback that category can elicit, but our goal is for it to be much more casual, or at least less rigorous, than what most users have come to expect of the WIP category (#hosted-games:works-in-progress). This includes requesting features of authors. Because, as a hobby project, there will be no intended audience beyond the author’s own interest, so suggesting things like ‘Can you make X an RO?’ or ‘Can I play as X instead of Y?’, may not be appropriate as it might not be the author’s goal/desire to expand their project’s scope in such a way.

However, just as with WIPs, every HP thread will be different in what the author is seeking in terms of feedback. And, as with any public sharing of a work, the onus is on the creator to clarify the kind of feedback they desire.

In short (edit from future me: that was a lie)—

When intending something for a market, to make a profit, then it is in a creator’s best interest to at least consider feedback regarding additional features, clarity of narrative, amount and quality of choice, etc. The creator must not simply think of themselves as an author telling a story, but as a businessperson crafting a product.
But, if the intention is just to write for pleasure either for one’s self or for the pleasure of seeing others enjoy your work, then the conversation regarding feedback shifts away from improving the marketability of a story and more towards enhancing the enjoyment that comes from creating it. It becomes about creating an incentive for the author to continue, and then for the author to incentivize further audience feedback, and so on, until it essentially becomes a positive-feedback loop from which a game or project arises.

Again, we won’t know what kind of feedback will be needed to do this—and it likely will vary from author to author, project to project—but I hope we all enjoy finding out!

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53

And we do have a couple of games at both CoG and HG where the author did do what they wanted, not taking any feedback, and if, only very little.

And those games are just not good.

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54

@poison_mara @MeltingPenguins
Ok, maybe I’ll go off topic but you 2 touched something where I have to say something.

As aspiring author I know very well a lot of feelings: the desire of saying your thoughs, of being listened, of leaving your mark in the world, the need of being apreciated.

In my life experiences I often saw 2 type of extremes: authors (both single and teams) that close their hears, shut their mouth, build defensive walls and get anger when someone can’t understand them; and authors that are so “dedicate” to their audience that they write everything for the sake of teasing, appeasing, and/or subverting (or worst all the three) their expetations.
I don’t have to say that both are wrong: the former because they are the apotheosis of egoism and narcisism, either born from their frustration beacuse lack of fame or because drunk of fame; the latter are the exemples of lack of self estime and dignity, during the Romanticism this was named “intellectual prostitution”.

What I think is that most of the (aspiring) authors need to remind that writing is almost every time a matter of compromise (I never said that the solution was easy, even for myself). They, we, need to learn when be humble and when be adamant.
Now for my experience I already know that not everyone will like what I’m writing, both because I can’t force people to accept my views on morality and art and because I’m intentinally writing some scenes and characters to be base breaking In short if any of my major character won’t be base breaking I’ll consider it a faillur .
For the feedback I’ve my own small reading group (I’m very gratefull to them), and once I received a couple of them (thank you @poison_mara for your workshop) I rejected one because it wasn’t what I was looking for, the other one actually help me to put certain things more clear for my protagonists

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55

Glad that the workshop has been helpful for you.

I agree with your view.

However, any person asking for Feedback has to understand that this feedback maybe not be positive.

Also, the author has to be sincere and express what feedback they think they need.

The reader has to accept that the author is not interested in his/their/her input.

Edit: I would die for the feedback my personal experience is having NONE.

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56

I had the same question sometimes.

There’s used to be a WIP, and I lost track of it since I lost interest of it since the author decided to lock the PC. There’s people kept complaining that a certain type of PC is unrealistic and imaginable and unacceptable, but if the PC is the opsite then it’s absolutely reasonable because they are expected to be like this.

Even though I respect the author’s decision to delete that type of PC all together, left only one type of PC, but I still felt somewhat upset and disappointed, I’m sorry to say this, to the people who were complaining and questioning.

I have to be vague of this, and I’m not talking about characteristics or personality.

Okay, so, seems I got myself been misunderstood terribly again or so I assume, the change of the said WIP is why I mustered courage to write down those in the interest check thread in the first place.
59

In an effort to stay on topic… this is what I said quite a while ago in a different thread:

Sometimes the premise of the story doesn’t allow for certain actions/plotlines to fall through that the readers may want. In part this is based on how willing the author is to follow through with delivering those, perhaps radically, alternative plot lines.

To address the original point brought up in the opening post, I’d like to share some advice I received from Malin Ryden when I posed this question in relation to this post:

ChubbyBlackCat: Have you gotten negative criticism for personality locking Sidestep?

Malin Ryden:

I have not had a single person complaining about that. The secrecy about their past, yes, some people don’t like that, but since that’s part of the mystery they’ll have to suffer.

How do you avoid this problem? By realizing you are writing a person, which the reader can influence, not a perfect translation of the readers thoughts. Your job as a writer is to write the best possible mc you can, who can have interesting discussions with people without the reader having to pick every sentence. Some people won’t like it if they want te blank protagonist, but they will quickly realize this game is not for them.

One thing I do is to mitigate this behind the scenes. For example, I vary dialogue depending on relationships, hidden stats and the like. The mc might have a similar discussion, but there would be different details if there was a romance involved, or if they were rivals.

I think it is very easy as a writer to worry too much about what the reader thinks. You are NEVER going to be able to write a game where the mc acts exactly they way all the very different readers wants to. It is impossible. So what you need to do is to make the character work in the story, you are not there to accommodate others oc’s, you are there to create a mc which can inspire and birth new oc’s for people.

People read stories because they want to read about new and interesting people. Make sure to write one, and they will be happy.

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60

Posting in bad faith on a topic swerving off the rails is something that I would advise against in the future.

Thank you, @Szaal and @AChubbyBlackCat – your efforts here are noted and the mod team greatly appreciates the care and wisdom you tried to show in keeping the thread alive.

With that said, this thread will not be reopened.

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