Instigating ROs

[Doriana-Gray]

@HannahPS

I want to plug Michelle Clough’s Kindness Coins talk which I’ve linked to elsewhere on here.

Ohh sounds interesting! I’ll check it out!

@EvilChani

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of having some ROs that simply are more forward this way (nothing overtly sexual, just like throwing an arm around the MC while walking, squeezing their hand in a tense situation, whatever), but can be shut down by the MC–and locked out of romance with them because they take it as disinterest in “that” way.

I find this interesting–but does it have to lock out romance? I usually don’t like choices that lock out romance too easily, without informing the player Couldn’t it just be that that specific touch or moment or at that stage of romance it was unwanted–But not a deal breaker?

@EvilChani

“I’m fine with it, but not here or at this time” [flirt all you want, but try again later], etc.).

Or maybe that’s what you mean here?

@Asturias

in the case of Doriana’s story time setting

Ahh–I started this conversation more of a general conversation because I felt it was needed and I was curious It’s not necessarily about my game. But even in the time period of my game there can be touching that happens:
Examples–
Someone catches you if you fall.
Someone kisses your hand when you think they will only hold it.
Someone bumps into you.
Someone misunderstands something and takes you hand or arm. (kinda like this emoji, u know when one person does that pose and the other person links their arm inside it…)

Example from pride and prejudice movie

@Asturias

Well, it would certainly work for some types of MCs, depending on personality traits, but, for me personally, it wouldn’t really work. The MC I play, needs to first know and have built some kind of relationship before they allow the other person (or RO) to touch them.

Did you play my game? If so–did you get the scene in the carriage with Watson where they hold onto you kinda as the carriage hits a nasty bump? There the touch happens, it’s not inherently romantic tho but it also kinda is, but you’re allowed to react negatively to it (and Watson apologises profusely)–how did that feel?

---

I’m curious in general about how the people in the camp of the poll choice 2 react to situations that could appear in games like these–does it make you turn off the game never to play again? Do you find it okay as long as you get to react appropriately to how you feel?

@LiliArch

(It could also mean you just don’t want to be touched when you’re not expecting it. Or by total strangers. That’s different, yes?)

It is different–but we have to remember this is still a game and has to be written. The author has to decide what they think they and the audience will like or accept–and can’t probably predict nor write every variation. By this poll we know most people are okay with the proposed scenario in choice 1, and a smaller group needs choice 2. Then the question is to where the general guideline can be placed, but that’s hard to find probably. I don’t really know where I am going with this I just know that finding the perfect amount of touching feels difficult

@Asturias

I wasn’t kidding when I said it may be a cultural thing too

Do we then base it on the culture of the author, the location the game is set, or of the majority of the audience, you think?

@gold

like being able to control how your character reacts, while not always having your character in control.

I find this interesting especially in rich experiences (negative + positive charged experiences where we are also protected from the darker elements with protective barriers–like this being a game etc).

@gold

I wonder if a toggle or a warning before the reader starts the story would be enough?

I think people underestimate the amount of work some toggles might be. It’s not the toggle–its if the scene or character is written in a way where the touch is pivotal, then it adds a loooot of extra work. And if we instead say “don’t build scenes or characters like that then” I feel like we are restricting ourselves a lot in what we can create.

[Snowflower]

@Doriana-Gray

Couldn’t it just be that that specific touch or moment or at that stage of romance it was unwanted–But not a deal breaker?

In I, the Forgotten One, you absolutely can reject touch in the early stages of the Milon/Lada romance, without it affecting later stages of the romance (much of the touch after that is reserved for the later stages). In fact, the MC of that game is canonically very touch-averse and them allowing contact from the RO is what’s remarkable.

I’m sorry about going on and on about I, the Forgotten One in this thread, but it does contain two instigating (some might say pushy, and I would agree) ROs that feel like dynamic and realized characters in themselves.

[EvilChani]

@Doriana-Gray

I find this interesting–but does it have to lock out romance? I usually don’t like choices that lock out romance too easily, without informing the player Couldn’t it just be that that specific touch or moment or at that stage of romance it was unwanted–But not a deal breaker?

@Doriana-Gray

Or maybe that’s what you mean here?

Yep, that’s what I meant. Let the MC choose then and there, at the first “touch” attempt, whether they just don’t want it then (or require certain conditions to accept it) or they don’t like being touched at all. Or they’re totally fine with it, of course.

For some ROs, I’d think refusal of any touching ever would lock the MC out of it. After all, just like there are some people who don’t like being touched, some people need that affirmation that they are loved/wanted/etc. (not necessarily sex, but just touching that would become more intimate and familiar), and it’s not fair to force them to sacrifice something they need to feel happy and secure–and completely upend their character–to make the MC happy.

Or, it could make for a dramatically painful “romance” path where the RO is in love but clearly miserable and getting more morose each day because they aren’t getting the one thing they need. Or hell, maybe they and the MC work together to find something that works for them both in order to be together because the feelings are that strong.

As much as people seem to love pain in their IF, this could prove an interesting plot and could have two very different outcomes (one where everything falls apart because neither party is willing to budge or where it ends up happy because they find a nice middle ground).

@Doriana-Gray

Did you play my game? If so–did you get the scene in the carriage with Watson where they hold onto you kinda as the carriage hits a nasty bump? There the touch happens, it’s not inherently romantic tho but it also kinda is

goes to find your game…

This sounds like my jam.

@Doriana-Gray

Do we then base it on the culture of the author, the location the game is set, or of the majority of the audience, you think?

I don’t think you can account for everyone’s culture, and I would think people would understand that.

As a writer, you have to make the culture fit the world/setting you’re using for your story. I mean, I have a couple of alien cultures where touching a stranger the wrong way may get you challenged to a death match (it’s actual a ritualistic challenge, but death is an outcome), while others are very touch-oriented and they immediately put walls up if people are against it. They’ll respect that choice, but they won’t ever get close to someone who can’t handle casual touching. Just depends on how they are.

Tl;dr: make the behavior fit your setting, but give players a choice to stop behaviors they can’t handle before it happens (like the choices I mentioned before).

@Doriana-Gray

And if we instead say “don’t build scenes or characters like that then” I feel like we are restricting ourselves a lot in what we can create.

You’re also catering only to one group. There are quite a few people, myself included, that appreciate this approach to character building. It makes for richer roleplay, allows for a wider variety of MCs, and is like a breath of fresh air, since it’s almost always been on the MC to make all the moves.

@Snowflower

I’m sorry about going on and on about I, the Forgotten One in this thread, but it does contain two instigating (some might say pushy, and I would agree) ROs that feel like dynamic and realized characters in themselves.

I don’t find Milon pushy at all. Forward, yes, but not pushy. I think it’s a matter of perspective, though.

[idonotlikeusernames]

Lada is creepier or at least clumsier in how she approaches mc. But I think that is mostly due to gameworld cultural influence, where Milon as a boy and a Duke is likely far from a virgin while his sister would have far less or even no sexual or romantic experience at all.

Obren also sorta instigates but only if male mc puts out some signals he’s gay and likes the boy, which is the best of both worlds I think as it allows ro’s the mc is actually interested in to take the lead in some circumstances.

[LiliArch]

@Doriana-Gray

we have to remember this is still a game and has to be written

True, and I definitely didn’t mean that the author should put in all possible variations - it was more a response to the “no touching ever” vs. “no issues with touch ever” thing in a general way.

[lucypher]

I agree with some of the opinions I’ve read here - I don’t mind things happening to my MC at all, being flirted with by NPCs included, but I do mind when the game doesn’t allow my character to properly react to them, or straight up assumes a reaction that wouldn’t make sense for my character at all.

Like, not every MC I make is going to be a nice, friendly person. Sometimes I like to play as a bog-woman who hisses at any living thing that comes close, so if a character gets cheeky with my MC and the game tells me they blushed cutely in response because “oooh, this NPC is so attractive”, then I’d be pretty annoyed.

In short, to me player agency is about being able to properly react to the things that happen in the story, not about being able to dictate how every character is going to react based on my own preferences.

[alison-envy]

You can never go wrong with making “instigating RO’s” a toggleable option at the beginning of the story, along with what that option turned on or off includes. Fields of Asphodel does that, and I haven’t seen anybody react negatively.

[Asturias]

@Doriana-Gray

Ahh–I started this conversation more of a general conversation because I felt it was needed and I was curious It’s not necessarily about my game. But even in the time period of my game there can be touching that happens:
Examples–
Someone catches you if you fall.
Someone kisses your hand when you think they will only hold it.
Someone bumps into you.
Someone misunderstands something and takes you hand or arm. (kinda like this emoji, u know when one person does that pose and the other person links their arm inside it…)

I didn’t mean accidental/obligatory because of etiquette type of touching. What you mention fall under this categories. I meant bolder touching which in the time setting would be considered a breach of etiquette.

@Doriana-Gray

Did you play my game? If so–did you get the scene in the carriage with Watson where they hold onto you kinda as the carriage hits a nasty bump? There the touch happens, it’s not inherently romantic tho but it also kinda is, but you’re allowed to react negatively to it (and Watson apologises profusely)–how did that feel?

Yep. I played the game and did get that scene with Watson. The touching was accidental, not an intentional one, so (I) my MC understood and didn’t react negatively. Also… Watson has a relatively deep bond with Sherlock (as a friend or as a romantic partner) so I don’t see my MC reacting the same way as they would react if a total stranger for example, wrapped their arm around their neck (they would respond… badly).

@Doriana-Gray

I’m curious in general about how the people in the camp of the poll choice 2 react to situations that could appear in games like these–does it make you turn off the game never to play again? Do you find it okay as long as you get to react appropriately to how you feel?

If you want to include these options because they fit the ROs personality then as long as there is an option to react against the RO (as a lover or a friend) being touchy (in their very first meeting, without any prior relationship with eachother) with MC, and them respecting MCs personal space then I have no problem the inclusion of such options. But I would be turned off from a RO if they don’t act accordingly, even after MC explicitly expressing their discomfort. (I would not be turned off of the game ofc. I rarely choose a game to play just because of the ROs. I’m interested on the story as a whole, not only the romance.)

Do we then base it on the culture of the author, the location the game is set, or of the majority of the audience, you think?

No. There is too much of a variety of cultures for that to be possible. But, include reaction options or write paths which can take into account this types of MCs (there are touch averse options in games, yet, personally, I rarely have found options which fit my type of MC (not touch averse or demi, just someone who doesn’t like being touched by strangers and wants their private space respected).

[Chinya]

The visual novel “Our Life” has a feature where you can decide if you want your love interest to have low initiative, medium initiative or high initiative.

To quote the game:
With low initiative, every “physical interaction will be either initiated or approved by the player before it happens.”.
With middle initiative “the love interest can get romantic, but the player’s agency will take priority.”.
With hight initiative, the “player agency will be reduced to a degree in favor of having Cove give physical affection even more frequently and with less prompting.”.

You can also set what kind of feelings you have towards the LI and he mirrors those feelings. If the MC is disinterested in him he will also be disinterested in them, if the MC has a crush on him he will have a crush on them and so on. The initiative choice will only show up if you have a crush on him or are in love with him. If you are disinterested in him or if you are fond of him as a friend, it won’t come up and every friendly physical interaction will be handled as if you have chosen low initiative.

[Anna_B]

One of my all time favorite games! And I agree, I think it handles the question at hand very well (and, you know, everything else about the game )

[ilovecoins]

@Chinya

The visual novel “Our Life” has a feature where you can decide if you want your love interest to have low initiative, medium initiative or high initiative

“Our life” mentioned!? Let’s goooo!

I just love that game, they did everything that i want in VN.

Sooo stocked for Our Life: Now and Forever as well. Qiu and Tamarack are just adorable.

[Doriana-Gray]

Hey, so—somewhat off topic–someone just changed the thread’s title and it wasn’t me?
I guess the change is fine but I’m a little confused by the change?

[Doriana-Gray]

@EvilChani

and it’s not fair to force them to sacrifice something they need to feel happy and secure–and completely upend their character–to make the MC happy.

True–I am personally positive to such restrictions if the opposite doesn’t make sense for the character

@EvilChani

goes to find your game…

This sounds like my jam.

I don’t think the scene is particularly controversial, I have yet to get complaints about that particular—probably as it is unintended touching, and the characters are good friends, and they apologise.
But the scene is a an example of how if I were to add a toggle around touching the whole scene would have had to be removed. Same with maybe some touchy feely characters–if I were to add a toggle possibly the whole character or at the very least the romance would have had to be removed to accommodate.

@EvilChani

You’re also catering only to one group. There are quite a few people, myself included, that appreciate this approach to character building. It makes for richer roleplay, allows for a wider variety of MCs, and is like a breath of fresh air, since it’s almost always been on the MC to make all the moves.

Yes! I am very glad to find there’s an audience for this too

@LiliArch

True, and I definitely didn’t mean that the author should put in all possible variations - it was more a response to the “no touching ever” vs. “no issues with touch ever” thing in a general way.

Ah, okay I understand

@lucypher

I agree with some of the opinions I’ve read here - I don’t mind things happening to my MC at all, being flirted with by NPCs included, but I do mind when the game doesn’t allow my character to properly react to them, or straight up assumes a reaction that wouldn’t make sense for my character at all.

Yes! This is exactly how I feel as long as I can RP I am fine (tho I’m sure there are exceptions but for more extreme content moments TW or toggles are easier to do probably than for more general things like “all touching” or “ROs flirting”)

@alison-envy

You can never go wrong with making “instigating RO’s” a toggleable option at the beginning of the story, along with what that option turned on or off includes. Fields of Asphodel does that, and I haven’t seen anybody react negatively.

I agree that it is safe–but it can add a lot of work or restrictions to that work I suppose what I’m most interested in finding is a good level of “most people find this flirting or touching okay” without implicit consent and “most people find this flirting or touching okay” with implicit or explicit consent. To know inside what space authors can comfortably write.

@Asturias

I didn’t mean accidental/obligatory because of etiquette type of touching. What you mention fall under this categories. I meant bolder touching which in the time setting would be considered a breach of etiquette.

True–tho people did breach etiquette. Especially in romantic situations (and especially in romance books ).

@Asturias

Yep. I played the game and did get that scene with Watson. The touching was accidental, not an intentional one, so (I) my MC understood and didn’t react negatively.

@Asturias

if a total stranger for example, wrapped their arm around their neck (they would respond… badly)

I think most would tbh

@Asturias

But I would be turned off from a RO if they don’t act accordingly, even after MC explicitly expressing their discomfort. (I would not be turned off of the game ofc. I rarely choose a game to play just because of the ROs. I’m interested on the story as a whole, not only the romance.)

Interesting. Thank you for answering

@Chinya

The visual novel “Our Life” has a feature where you can decide if you want your love interest to have low initiative, medium initiative or high initiative.

Our life is an amazing amazing game–and I love it–but it also only has one RO and is extremely focused on just Cole/MC and their relationship. Their solution is a lot of extra work. And I think expecting this from IFs with usually only one writer and many ROs is going to lead to disappointment

[jay-walker]

@Doriana-Gray

Our life is an amazing amazing game–and I love it–but it also only has one RO and is extremely focused on just Cole/MC and their relationship. Their solution is a lot of extra work. And I think expecting this from IFs with usually only one writer and many ROs is going to lead to disappointment

And not everyone is a fan of the idea of writing RO’s who can by manipulated by the player to this extreme degree.
There’s this worrying trend in IFs of making RO’s size-fits-all. No strong opinions, available for every position in bed, changeable gender, perfectly happy with every red line a player might have.
Sure, the end result is not unpopular, but these aren’t characters - these are blank slates with 1-2 personality traits that fit a trope.

[Chinya]

@Doriana-Gray

Our life is an amazing amazing game–and I love it–but it also only has one RO and is extremely focused on just Cole/MC and their relationship. Their solution is a lot of extra work. And I think expecting this from IFs with usually only one writer and many ROs is going to lead to disappointment

Well, there are the DLC LIs Derek and Baxter, but you are right that the main focus of “Our Life” is the relationship between Cove and the MC. Even if you play the whole game disinterested in Cove he will still play a big role in the MC’s life. It really would be too much to expect this from other IFs, because most IF have their focus somewhere else even if it is a romance-focused game.

@Doriana-Gray

I agree that it is safe–but it can add a lot of work or restrictions to that work I suppose what I’m most interested in finding is a good level of “most people find this flirting or touching okay” without implicit consent and “most people find this flirting or touching okay” with implicit or explicit consent. To know inside what space authors can comfortably write.

I don’t think that there is a way to make everyone happy because everyone has different boundaries. A few people have already said this but maybe having a simple choice where you can tell the LI off could be enough. Establishing boundaries with someone happens all the time in real life so why not in an IF? Write the character how you want to write them and if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with that give them the opportunity to say so. It doesn’t have to be the end of the interaction between the MC and this LI but it could change the way the LI interacts with the MC.

@jay-walker

And not everyone is a fan of the idea of writing RO’s who can by manipulated by the player to this extreme degree.

I think it works for “Our Life” because they actually made that part of Cove’s personality:
“…Cove will return the same level of interest you have. He wants to get along with you if you give him a chance. If you don’t he’ll keep his distance.”.
And while you can also set what feelings you have towards Derek and Baxter, I don’t think that they are mirroring those feelings. Derek feels like he always has a small crush on the MC whether they reciprocate or not and Baxter… well I don’t think I can talk about Baxter at this point in time because his DLC is still in the Patreon beta. Point is, while player agency is a really huge deal in “Our Life” I still think that the characters feel pretty fleshed out.

@jay-walker

There’s this worrying trend in IFs of making RO’s size-fits-all. No strong opinions, available for every position in bed, changeable gender, perfectly happy with every red line a player might have.

Because doing it like that is pretty popular I certainly feel the pressure to do it in my game even though I am not the biggest fan of doing that with my own characters.

[gold]

@Doriana-Gray

I think people underestimate the amount of work some toggles might be. It’s not the toggle–its if the scene or character is written in a way where the touch is pivotal, then it adds a loooot of extra work. And if we instead say “don’t build scenes or characters like that then” I feel like we are restricting ourselves a lot in what we can create.

I was envisioning it more as just “cutting out” the associated scenes, like requiring the reader to accept that toggling off scenes means a subpar or jarring reading experience. I guess that might get complaints though.

[Doriana-Gray]

@gold

I was envisioning it more as just “cutting out” the associated scenes, like requiring the reader to accept that toggling off scenes means a subpar or jarring reading experience. I guess that might get complaints though.

That would be a lot easier for the writer than what I imagined. A worry is tho, as you say, it being jarring and confusing–if the cut can’t be made cleanly. And even if there is a warning about it, I don’t think readers would accept that as enough of a reason for such a reading experience I foresee a lot of comments about how scenes jump strangely, references don’t add up, or information and context are missing. I don’t think I, as the maker, or as a reader, would prefer it to simply not playing that specific game.

But I could be wrong. I know similar things are done with certain arachnids in certain games for phobia reasons.

[Able_Wolffe]

I believe instigating ROs are pretty good for a multitude of reasons, but the main would be characterization. It’s a side of people you can’t explore if it’s removed from the story outright, and having characters instigate while giving the player the option to put a stop to it is even more characterization.

[Suwariish]

@Doriana-Gray

And even if there is a warning about it, I don’t think readers would accept that as enough of a reason for such a reading experience

At some point, some of the accountability for such things will have to fall on the reader instead of the writer.

There is only so much a writer can do to accommodate people and at the very least informing about subpar or diminished experiences gives people the chance to make an informed decision about whether or not they want to engage with any given work. It’s like when people slap content warnings on stuff.

If a reader decides to engage despite the warning; than honestly it’s on them for doing so rather than finding something that more aligns with what they’re looking for.

[nulCat]

@Suwariish

If a reader decides to engage despite the warning; than honestly it’s on them for doing so rather than finding something that more aligns with what they’re looking for.

This, 100%
If someone says don’t touch the wet paint on the bench and you touch it anyway you can’t blame the person that warned you about the fact that you have wet paint on your butt now. Just pick a bench with dry paint does that make sense? it did to me.also if this sounds a bit harsh i don’t mean it to