It talks of 4 different kinds of “protective frames”, (a) the detachment frame, (b) the safety-zone frame, (c) the control frame, (d) the perspective frame.
Basically it says how it can sometimes be good to design an experience that is both negative and positive, but protecting the user from the bad using these frames.
This being a game it already comes with a detachment, we know it’s not real etc. Additionally we have the power to turn off the game. Then you could add levels of control to the player with different methods—toggles or indirect choices etc etc.
I wonder if there’s any additional frames that could be good, that haven’t yet been mentioned in this thread
I also think it can be important to highlight what can be gained by having the RO instigate:
The MC gets to feel wanted, without prompting. Similar to how it is not quite as nice having to ask someone how your new outfit looks, compared to an impromptu compliment. (although if the comment is unwanted it can be a similar situation as the RO instigating Cons).
The MC doesn’t have to feel like the one always instigating. I personally can feel… almost like I bother the characters if I always have to be the one to ask or prompt something. I like a balance to it all.
The player can be surprised (to both good and bad results).
The player doesn’t have to feel like they are controlling both MC and RO, possibly lowering immersion/suspense/surprise/spontaneity.
Yes! I love that type of reaction <3 Sometimes I find the “negative” moments in games worth it simply to react in a way I find comforting or fun.
You just listed all of the reasons I have for wanting ROs that are the ones to make the first move in these games. It gets so tiresome to be forced to RP MCs that always make the first move, flirt, touch, etc. It starts to make the MC look like they’re harassing the RO after a while, especially for some ROs. Even if you play a shy MC (which totally isn’t my thing), they seem to instigate everything with their blushing and stuttering, which makes things even weirder for me to RP.
I think having a ROs flirting with the MC is just another step in making characters feel that much more “alive” The writer would just have to implement it in a way that doesn’t throw player agency out the window. Which can easily be done by giving the player an option to stop ROs advances. Be adult about it, simple. I think this can also aid in shaping the MC sexuality. Instead of having that “gamey” feel, when some stories ask the reader right away, who are you attracted to? The story can actively explore the idea by having the reader flirt and be flirted with. It’s just more interesting I think.
Adding to this, but if there is an instigating RO, there should also be options to turn them down and have them back off. When the MC does confront them, I would prefer to have a variety of reasons why (even if its just a fake choice) ranging from “I’m not interested in men/women/other” to “I’m not interested in a relationship right now” to “I don’t think it would work between us” to “I don’t feel comfortable with you”. Even if it doesn’t affect anything, it would help with roleplaying a lot more than just a “no”.
I want to plug Michelle Clough’s Kindness Coins talk which I’ve linked to elsewhere on here. It touches on some elements of this discussion - specifically, thinking about different ways in which interactive romances can be designed to feel organic as well as fun from a game-playing perspective. Her book Passion and Play is also fantastic, though it’s more focused on representing physical intimacy in games - it’s made me think about it in an entirely fresh way (just in time for a new project, hooray!).
I think as in real life, communication - verbal or nonverbal - can go a long way to make the characters and the MC feel real. One player or character’s “yay, they care about me enough to ask every time if I want a hug” is another’s “ugh, why can’t they show they care about me by hugging me without hesitation?” One player or character’s “yay, I love that they’re touching my arm flirtatiously, I get butterflies” is “ugh, this is creeping me out”.
I would kindly encourage everybody here to keep this discussion civil and tactful.
You may not know it, but I am autistic. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango, two hands to clap. I learnt this the hard way.
I would like to see both sides make moves. This may not be a chessboard, but both sides have to make the necessary moves, in order to avoid a stalemate. Moves that fit with the character’s personality.
Some PCs are more active. Some are more passive. Same goes for the RO. There are as many different kinds of ROs as there are people. Sometimes you make the first move, sometimes the RO. If you can have different characters having different turn priorities in battle, why not do the same for romance? Most importantly, please analyse the whole situation first.
Would you be okay with certain ROs (where it fits their character) to start to touch the MC, with the MC having the option to stop it before it happens?
The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of having some ROs that simply are more forward this way (nothing overtly sexual, just like throwing an arm around the MC while walking, squeezing their hand in a tense situation, whatever), but can be shut down by the MC–and locked out of romance with them because they take it as disinterest in “that” way.
Not locked out of friendship, of course. And maybe (like someone else said) it would be a good way to slip in more MC customization, where the MC tells the RO why they don’t like to be touched, even in a casual, typically-seen-as-friendly way (i.e., “Only those I’m already close to can touch me” [insinuating you’re demi], “I don’t like people touching me at all” [touch averse], “I’m fine with it, but not here or at this time” [flirt all you want, but try again later], etc.).
Or maybe it could set a contentious relationship with the MC and that particular RO, if that’s what people wanted for their MCs. Where that pretty much ruins any chance of them every getting along, for both of them. Could make for some interesting RPing…
Isn’t that what Bacondoneright did with Milon and Lada in ITFO? I thought it was very effective. I know you and I both like Milon a lot, and he and Lada are the main examples of instigating ROs that I can think of.
Yep, he did. Well, I know that’s what he did for Milon, who I love. I’d like to see more like that (maybe with bolder MCs, too). I did see a couple of people complaining about it, though, calling Milon creepy (which I can’t see no matter how hard I try).
Well, it would certainly work for some types of MCs, depending on personality traits, but, for me personally, it wouldn’t really work. The MC I play, needs to first know and have built some kind of relationship before they allow the other person (or RO) to touch them.
Also, you really don’t need to be touch averse or someone like my MC (“Only those I’m already close to can touch me” does not always insinuate that you are demi. It could also be a cultural thing.), in the case of Doriana’s story time setting. At that time, it was expected not to touch or be touched “casually” as could be normal in modern times by complete strangers. “Flirting” was done more subtly, hence why I voted for the second option and not the first one.
Well yeah. I wasn’t kidding when I said it may be a cultural thing too. In my country, even between friends, you have to (or it’s expected) hold a certain type of distance to respect propriety or the other person’s sense of personal space. Hugging or kissing on the cheek is only done between very close friends and total strangers who are “touchy” (even patting you in the back) with you are frowned upon. That’s what I meant by it, being a cultural thing.
Also, I totally get not liking to be touched when you don’t expect it. It doesn’t automatically mean you are demi though😂
Personally, I’m a fan of ROs instigating without consent, physically too. I suppose it’s because I like reading stories that tend to be darker and more high-stakes, so I like having that danger and fear element in my “romances” too - like being able to control how your character reacts (e.g. with confusion, panic, horror) while not always having your character in control.
It’s kind of weird because I’m pretty sensitive to this stuff irl but I like it in fiction. I totally get that many people find it unacceptable and don’t wanna see it though - I wonder if a toggle or a warning before the reader starts the story would be enough?
And to add to that, the actual area around the person that’s considered personal space definitely depend on culture. I see yout point (and definitely agree).
depends on what the game wants to do probably. But I personally find it interesting 