I think we have different definitions of “fine”. Barely saw anything on the fight, on the vote, the writing is being vague for a reason, there needs to be a build up. And I wouldn’t take anything Mc says at face value, they’re a biased opinion from a character that no matter what you do is just as emotionally stunted as the rest.
Is this dialogue after a choice was picked? I’ve yet to read a passage where it seemed like Mc was uncaring, unaffected, with how things ended with Seven, or blaming them for what happened. If anything, it seemed like they’re bitter over their own actions and the band’s.
It is a biased opinion because Mc’s internal dialogue is a pov, from again, another emotionally stunted adult. What makes sense to us as readers and trying to put our logic based on our personal experiences and values is bound to happen, but Mc is supposedly their own person in a way.
With all said, we’ll just have to agree to disagree because there is absolutely no common ground that we could meet on.
I think that the vested interest and the way the band members have prioritized their own benefits at the expense of someone else put into question any claims they’d make about this being driven by reason and not personal greed.
The funniest part is it probably wasn’t even needed – if MC and Seven singing together was this much of a problem, then there was nothing that’d prevent the band from keeping both MC and Seven as singers, and simply have them record/release their own solo pieces. After all, no one can claim that there’s no audience for Seven singing solo, there’s obvious evidence in the game to the contrary.
Abba, Fleetwood Mac, Kiss, Pink Floyd, Eagles, The Beach Boys, Simon & Garfunkel, ZZ Top… sure, it’s far easier to get one good singer, but it doesn’t mean that there’s no popular bands with more than one.
The thing is, this particular issue is not due to a biased opinion. It’s literally the MC’s internal monologue that shows them to be stupid and/or flat out unsympathetic and uncaring toward Seven.
Yes. In fact, Seven got a hit song that bumped them up and over MC’s band shortly after they left the band. So Seven had plenty of fans, and plenty of talent. But we already knew that…
I really wonder if the band’s whole purpose in the vote was to break MC and Seven up as bffs and/or lovers. They had to know the effect it would have on Seven, if they knew them at all. Maybe they didn’t like the united front and knew the MC didn’t really care about Sev that much, and figured they’d rub Seven’s nose in it as a way of splitting the two of them up. Unless they were actually stupid enough to think Seven would just go along with it and be shoved to the background, they probably realized how things would turn out, too.
I feel like you lose me with the “canonically fine” thing. I haven’t played every iteration of MC and I haven’t replayed the game in full in probably six months, but at least in my memory, I don’t recall the MC that I played feeling “fine” with the situation (of course, they let it happen). Admittedly some of that might be me reading between the lines, but I’m skeptical of the MC, across all possible paths, being “canonically fine” and caring very little about the vote.
And I don’t see it as an impossibility that an MC who cares deeply for Seven (romantically or not, I don’t think it matters if they were always intended to be codependently up each other’s ass) to take them at their word that they were fine with the outcome of the band’s decisions and be wrong about it. I think that’s a fine character decision.
Could this not be, at least in part, because we’ve been piecemealed details about these characters over the past two(?) years?
Very true. And I still hold that the writing has done this, at least from my perspective.
Yep. MC’s POV is also going to be biased just like every other character, especially their memory of the vote (what little of that situation we’ve seen so far).
No worries! I like that people are talking about it, so don’t get me wrong. I just don’t agree with everyone’s pov, that’s all
I think I’m gonna bow out with this last post anyway, I’ve said my piece and I’m sure people are getting sick of me, lol.
correct me if i’m wrong and i apologize if i am, but i have the impression that some people in this discussion have not read the sneak peek, and the point being made here is based off it. i’m not 100% sure if agree with it, but having read the chapter 4 sneak peek, i do see where it’s coming from. i’ll try to reread it later and see what i think.
Lol yes, I realized this a little bit ago too. I was being “disagreed with” when my point wasn’t even understood to begin with. It happens.
Sure, well there’s no arguing and it’s not like I need you to agree with me or not. But I’m still confused as to what your comment had to do with what my actual feedback was if you did understand my point? That’s the weird part.
What does any of this have to do with what I said? Which was regarding MC’s inner monologue that was definitely present in the sneak peek.
Again, this has nothing to do with anything I actually said? Unless you somehow have me confused with someone else. I never said or alluded that the PC should leave. Like, at all.
Yes. A majority of the people arguing with you have in fact read the Patreon sneak peek and still do not agree with you. Surprising, I know, that we can draw different things having read the same thing. If you read the comments under the post as well, you’ll see in fact that hundreds have also not drawn that conclusion.
I still stand by the fact that Mc is a contradicting character just like every other so some of their stuff doesn’t make sense to readers and the fact that we haven’t been given all that information to conclude why Mc “who cares for Seven” didn’t leave.
The gist of that feedback was saying it feels like the story is minimizing the relationship between Seven and Mc, inconsistent for them to appear fine.
My argument is fitting in your context, again, I’m saying I did not read anything such to get that conclusion nor do I feel like it’s fair to make such a judgement when you’re on a snippet of chapter four out of twenty where barely anything has been discussed and any topic of Seven isn’t discussed thoroughly.
I don’t think the vote is as it seems and to not be spoilery, the theories under the patreon comments are rather interesting. Nor do I think whatever Mc is thinking currently should be taken at face value, because Amy is being vague on purpose for one, and two, they’re still an unreliable narrator no matter what you choose.
Even if it is their inner thoughts, I don’t think Mc even knows what they’re thinking or at least set on. It’s like reading another version of Seven’s stuff, at least to me. I’m pretty sure I’ve even thought things that I didn’t mean when emotions were high. It’s just human.
We definitely read the same thing, to insinuate that people didn’t because they don’t agree…don’t know what to tell you.
The characters were acting with limited context and experience, but there’s nothing—absolutely zero evidence—that suggests the vote was the wrong business move. The band is objectively more successful post-Seven. And I think that’s kind of the point of it: the sort of icky realization that there was something gained from destroying a decade-long friendship. Was it worth it? Would they make the same choice if given a redo? Answers may vary!
And also, maybe it’s bad that the vote worked out fairly well for the band because it’s convinced them that their off-cuff decisions won’t ever have truly negative professional consequences. I have a feeling that their myopia might eventually start biting them in the ass.
It’s the inner monologue in the flashback toward the beginning of the update, when Seven left their drink sitting there and MC is thinking about it. I think that was vague enough not to give spoilers, but should point you in the right direction.
It didn’t come off that way to me. In fact, I found it pretty shocking, considering we keep getting told how close MC and Seven were. I was playing with my 7-mancer (actually, I just played it like she was romancing everyone so I wouldn’t have to play it four times), so it was especially disturbing. I mean, we all see things from different angles, but that? It just screamed to me that MC is a self-absorbed asshole and never really cared about Seven at all. At the very least, MC ranks their friends above their supposed lover.
It’s still not biased, though.
Maybe I’m arguing semantics (this wouldn’t be the first time), but bias implies prejudice. An example would be the MC’s POV when talking to Cory–the MC seems to assume Cory hates them when Cory is just doing her damned job, which is about as easy as herding cats. MC should expect no preferential treatment there, and shouldn’t assume Cory is out to get them (Cory is out to get drama, and MC is a well of it). So when MC’s POV makes it seem like Cory is singling them out, that’s bias.
With the flashback, we’re literally seeing MC’s thoughts. It’s not their “take” on it, they genuinely have no clue why Seven is upset after snatching their dream from them. So they’re either ridiculously stupid, completely lacking of empathy, or are just a self-centered ass that doesn’t give a damn about their lover because “business”. No bias. Just a picture of who the MC is inside.
Now, having said that, I do agree with you that MC is emotionally stunted. Perhaps that’s why they’re a self-centered asshole about the vote. One truth does not negate the other truth, however. And, maybe, that’s what we are supposed to see for the MC at the start–someone whose emotional state doesn’t allow them to actually love anyone. Maybe part of MC’s growth requires them to face how cold-hearted they were about voting Seven out, and trying to grow from it.
Okay, we can agree to disagree. I just wanted to clarify what brought me to this belief about the MC, and why I don’t think POV bias has anything to do with it.
Seven seemingly didn’t see Jazzy, Devyn, Iris, and Rowan as equal contributors to the band with equal authority to Seven and MC. They were supporting players to his and MC’s dream.
I think this is arguably key to some of the issues with the vote itself from Seven’s point of view, to be honest! They definitely seem upset that the rest of the band voted them out, but I suppose my interpretation falls more in line with “being upset MC betrayed them by not instantly stopping the four other people in the band from doing it” as if it wasn’t a two vs four, in that scenario. I do think Seven’s priority was always MC while MC - renowned people pleaser (affectionate) - considered everyone to be an equal with a voice.
The “MC is the leader BUT we do votes and all have a voice in our choices” is part of the conflict in the present day for the band! Who holds the responsibility? Do they all have authority if MC is the one meant to be mainly responsible for the consequences? From what I can tell, it does seem to me that Seven held the view that the authority did not in fact belong to everyone equally, even if it was entirely a subconscious belief. Codependency does have a tendency to make you block out everyone else’s views aside from you and Your Guy™!
I mean, sure, you could read things into it in a lot of ways but this would be a first for the PC in regards to their monologues and there’s no precedent so I don’t see why we would be expected to read it that way or why it would make sense to. It’s whatever if you do though but I still see my reading and feedback as valid. It’s not like I was making anything up.
…. I didn’t?! lol. Are we reading what I’m saying? I said “I was being disagreed with when my point wasn’t even understood to begin with”, as in, my actual points were not being addressed in several of the replies to me and people were disagreeing to points I never made (and several that had nothing to do with the monologue in the sneak peek, which again was my point*), maybe because people feel protective over Infamous so if anyone has any feedback, even if it’s perfectly reasonable and kind like mine as a fan, people’s hackles raise — or for whatever reason.
So… this does not in any way imply that what bothered me was the disagreement, I’m obviously still going to send my feedback along regardless, but what in fact bothered me was that it felt like a few people weren’t actually reading and understanding what I bothered to type kind of similar to what happened here
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree – because my position is that there’s, similarly, zero evidence that what little success MC’s band currently enjoys can be attributed specifically to getting rid of Seven, as opposed to simply gaining fans as result of prolonged presence/exposure over time. Or that they would be worse off at this point in time if Seven wasn’t removed from the lineup.
I suppose there could be just as much of a point in creating the situation where we don’t know if getting rid of Seven was actually right business move, and it’s instead merely something the band members are left telling themselves because the alternative would be having to acknowledge that they’ve ruined decade old friendship effectively for no real gain.
On this point I don’t really agree with you. Now does the mc potentially have some sort of mental disorder that may or may not have made going into the idol-obsessed part of the music industry a bad choice in the first place? I am currently leaning towards, yes. But that doesn’t mean they deserve every shitty thing that happens to them now just because they are either a social narcissist or somewhere on the spectrum, depending on if you play a “confident” mc or not. Now people don’t have to agree with me but I think my mc is essentially a highly intelligent autistic kid who has trouble expressing himself except through song and music, as that really does happen in the real world on a handful of occasions and his high intelligence allows him to mask his mental differences to a degree but it is tiring, difficult and doesn’t always work (just like for real people on the spectrum), which is my explanation for why mc lives in his own head so much. I do think it makes my boy really unsuited for the idol driven part of the music industry and he would have probably been better off as either a solo indie artist or just a duo with Seven from the start. Or a duo with and/or composer and songwriter to Blake, but such an ending probably isn’t in the cards, particularly not one where mc can actually marry sexy boy too.
Anyway, just my two cents. My mc tries to be as decent as he can be. It most often doesn’t quite work out the way he wants or hopes it will but I still think it doesn’t mean he deserves all the shitty things happening to him.
I mean the parents did the mc no favours growing up either and mine is a health and fitness nut because his own body is, at this point in his life, really the only thing he has any degree of control over at all.
Yeah, this is where I land, too! There was a fundamental incompatibility between the way Seven viewed the band’s role v. how the rest of the band viewed themselves, and a people-pleasing MC got caught in the crosshairs. Definitely agree that most of Seven’s anger comes from MC’s perceived agency in contrast to the band’s, but I think also their closeness. If push came to shove, if it came down to a choice between Seven and the band, Seven thought MC would take their side without question—and MC didn’t. MC tried to compromise, which was tantamount to betrayal. And IMO, even if MC eventually blinked and left with Seven, the damage to their relationship had already been done.
Whether that’s fair or reasonable is up to individual opinion, but I don’t think anyone’s ever accused these characters of being that
Well, we know they were a band for a decade prior to the vote and were serious for ~5 years after high school. There was quite a bit of time for them to grow, but they had instead stagnated. And considering that both Seven and MC’s popularity grew exponentially post-breakup, I tend to think that there’s probably a little kernel of truth in the idea that they shine brighter in their own niches.
There’s no way of knowing if it’s the choice that lead to maximum success, but we do know the band is objectively more successful post-breakup than pre-breakup. The band’s most popular song comes after Seven’s departure. That’s a fact. I guess I just don’t understand why it matters if the choice they ended up making was truly the best move. It’s not like the band would ever know the results of another outcome and they already have plenty to feel guilty about.
And I’ll be real with you — I’m of the opinion that the vote expedited the fallout, but that a fallout would have happened regardless. I think some of these people would rather walk into traffic than have to speak honestly and vulnerably with each other, which is bad for longterm harmony.
We’re not going to find common ground on this subject, I think, so let’s just leave this convo here.
—
On another note: I 100% understand why people have reservations about how the information about the fight is being divulged and how the outcome of the vote/fight will feel in full color.
I’ve said this before, but I think the slow drip of information leading up to a big reveal is going to be difficult to get right. It’s a great tool to use in traditional media because it adds new context that makes the audience reanalyze everything they thought they knew and understood, but with interactive fiction, MC is at least partly customizable, so you’re riding a thin line with a set outcome. It’s not going to feel completely natural or coherent unless there’s significant branching.
So, MC who didn’t vote was in the wrong (I personally thought that it’s very clear that MC was 100% ambushed and even Seven seemed to know more than MC for some suspicious reason). But okay. Let’s say they are 100% in the wrong. It allows so much character growth and clears space for a very satisfying character arc. If MC is a saint and felt really bad the whole time… Why throw away more than a decade of friendship with the most important person in your life and experience three years of silence/hostility? “Oh, but I actually really wanted to keep you in the band and to be your friend again! So what if I’m still besties with the people who threw you away because of business and never once reached out to you? I felt really bad the whole time though!”. What does it change? That’s stupid, if not insulting.
When you realise you royally fucked up with someone, you usually try to fix it. When I was in a similar situation, I send a very long letter to my ex-friend’s MOM just because I was blocked everywhere and didn’t know their current address, yet I really needed them to know that I know I fucked up.
But MC does not fully realise that, and if/when they do, it’s too late. MC is in the wrong, I agree. They are very much an asshole for letting something like this happen and not doing anything afterwards. Doesn’t matter how you play them, they are oblivious and a pushover. They are in their head so much that not even Seven could read them, even before the fallout. They are extremely avoidant (or at least they were avoidant before BoTB started to put pressure on them). The band doesn’t even know what the fuck to do with MC because MC doesn’t know what do with themselves. They are messy and in the wrong. They are a villain in Seven’s story.
And that’s great! Man, what a material for twenty (!!) chapters. Let MC realise their mistakes, make up for them, take accountability, grow as a person, mend their relationship with Seven or close the chapter and move on completely. Let them deal with childhood trauma, let them realise their co-depending, people-pleasing tendencies, let them learn how to set healthy boundaries or/and let them fly solo. And that’s just if you play MC who think they are 100% in the wrong. That’s character development for you.
I personally think it’s not entirely true and the band is full of shitty friends. Which is a different conversation and way more interesting than the freaking vote again.
I think the crux of the issue is exactly this fact MC doesn’t fully realize it, and how much of a blistering idiot this makes them. Having a protagonist who is this dumb can have very negative effect on how much enjoyment some people get out of their fiction, especially when this fiction is also interactive. See also: the long line of otome games with black hole-level dense protagonists, played completely straight and simply as a device to have equally dumb plot going, with the player having no control over their character’s appaling idiocy.
You think it’s great that the protagonist may learn how to rub two brain cells together after 20 chapters and that’s fine, but at the same time a lot of people won’t be able to stomach watching this stupidity for most of the game, nor is going to buy the “and then Seven understood and forgave the MC because after all, the MC had character development arc. Happy end!” which is just as shallow in its self-help book simplicity.
Not understanding how your best friend feels about having their lifelong dream forcefully taken from them by their supposed friends isn’t being “a bit oblivious” by any stretch. A literally blind person would be able to tell the outcome of that scenario in advance, if you described it to them. I’m simply not interested in extending MC this much of a credit to pretend they aren’t what they are.
Of course. Which is why i generally don’t play them. While i quite enjoyed the early chapters, for now i’m reserving my judgement until Ch.4 is released so i can see the whole thing in context. If it turns out as bad as people are making it here, and the MC really this stupid, then i’ll probably simply move on.
Yeah, I really agree with the suggestion made yesterday that revealing more upfront would go a long way to not making things quite so jarring based on specific PC choices. It’s still relatively early into the overall planned chapter count but quite a bit has already happened, there’s been so much hinted at and said, and so many choices have been made — so I do feel that the slow drip either has to start from the very beginning if it’s going to remain more set in ‘tone’, or keep it where it is but more care has to be taken to add tinier branching and differences.
I understand but agree to disagree. I don’t think MC is a complete idiot. Like I said, a bit oblivious and influenced by their childhood. Sometimes you get caught up in your own shit. Mistakes happen. Big mistakes happen too. Just because you made one idiotic choice doesn’t mean you are hopeless. The only way is to move forward. You can definitely play MC who is a self-absorbed idiot, but you can also… not do that. I was really excited to finally push back in the sneak peek, even though I got yelled at lol.
kind of similar to what happened here
nice!