80

“Golden undertones” might be a decent way to describe the color of East Asian skin, especially if you contrasted it with the pinkish skin of another character.

81

Censuses like that would only be helpful if OP was writing something that takes place on earth as we know it, or an AU where the current modern day countries exist, but have more fantastical elments. OP is not doing that so real would censuses would do little help. Their fantasy world has people and cultures similar to various real world culture, including east Asia, so giving sources that rely entirely on real would data would not be helpful. “Asian” people in their world would not be “real” Asian people but they would provide real Asian people representation, which they frequently lack in sci-fi and fantasy media. When we are represented, we’re usually barbarians, exotic otherworldly nonhumans, or other racist characatures. Writing With Color is mainly people talking about their own personal experiences which would be helpful if OP wants their characters to feel real. Academic sources can be helpful but for the most part are often very impersonal and may be hard to word with when writing fiction

Also, @Avery_Moore another thing that would be good to keep in mind would be to include South Asians, Southeast Asians, Western Asians (like ones nearer to the European border) I haven’t included information about them since I don’t know much about the hem. They would also be good to research

Also please excuse any mispelling and other incoherencies, I just came out of surgery for my wisdom teeth so I’m a little bit out of it. Let me know if anything got too jumbled and doesn’t make sense

8 Likes
82

Also, it’s important to note that scholarly sources can be (and often are) racist themselves; I wouldn’t want to blindly follow what a European scholar had to say about an Asian culture (or a Middle Eastern culture, etc. etc.)—especially older sources, but even with modern ones.

I linked Writing With Color because it’s a place where Asian people themselves are talking about how they want to be represented, what is helpful and what is offensive, and other relevant matters.

15 Likes
83

Blind trust is exactly what I’m warning against. I am not advocating a boycott of popular sources because they are not academic. I am encouraging everyone to engage their critical thinking brains and figure out whether or not what they are reading is right, or wrong, and why.

And that’s absolutely fine. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. Grassroots movements have the potential to grow into something bigger, into a force that can enact real change. Just look at the way Anita Sarkeesian, for example, helped to change the video game industry. She started off a small, grassroots campaign and look where she ended up. But even she had to deal with and respond to critiques of her work. That’s what true academics do. They argue. They reason. They persuade. But they do not employ logical fallacies to do so. Implying that we should not trust in scholarly sources as a whole because one or two might be bad is a terrific example of logical fallacy. That’s like saying we should abandon social justice because of a few extremists. I would not agree with that at all.

If you or anyone you know would like to read more about racial inequality, here’s an article from Harvard.

84

Simply describe the race as it exists in your fantasy world. The reader will figure out where the inspiration is drawn from.

85

Fiogan wasn’t implying that, mon frere. She was responding to your statement:

which could be read as the same type of logical fallacy. Now, reading it in an absolutist way would be a bit silly, just as it would be silly to read Fiogan as having implied that “we shouldn’t trust in scholarly sources as a whole.”

Let me know if I’m misreading you, but I took you to be suggesting that on this question, academic sources would on the whole deserve more trust than popular ones. (And I think that’s also how Fiogan read your comment, and responded with a helpful caveat.)

No offense to academic sources or those who use them… but I don’t think that’s right. “How best to describe people with non-“European” body types in a fantasy world,” is an issue where I wouldn’t expect academia to have much to contribute. By all means fire off any links you find that show otherwise – I’d be delighted to see them! But I doubt whether “experts writing for experts” in peer reviewed journals, per the first link you shared, have produced much that is either helpful or authoritative on this particular question.

An academic paper on racial ascription in fantasy literature would be interesting, but likely to be largely descriptive and only implicitly prescriptive (i.e. telling you how it should be done). The thread author is looking for prescriptive answers; and I agree with you that all of those should be taken critically.

I also wouldn’t be quick to assume that academic writing on this issue would be any more inclined to “reason and persuade” than a popular source; there’s lots of thinly-veiled authoritarianism in academia when it comes to politically sensitive issues.

I’ll continue to offer Writing With Color as a healthy read for anyone prone (as I was!) to resort to “the yellow-skinned, almond-eyed stranger” as a description of their fantasy Asian people.

12 Likes
86

It’s also a question of which academic eye we’re offered as a viewpoint.

If there are academic papers on the subject by the people group in question, that’s fabulous. (And of course, we should still read thoughtfully, consider the exact source, compare to other sources, and all of those sensible things.) However, I’m assuming someone who asks ‘how do I describe this ethnic group?’ very possibly doesn’t speak any languages of that group, and would have trouble searching for academic papers from within the group because of the language barrier. Translations aren’t always easy to find, especially for more specific issues.

I’m a big fan of ‘always go to the source’, whenever possible. Don’t talk about people; talk to them. More importantly, listen to them.

9 Likes
87

Plus a lot of academic papers have paywalls to access the full text. Unless OP has a lot of money they’re okay with shelling out on a whim on papers they aren’t even sure would help them, things like Writing With Color are way more accessible

The point of view from the diaspora (which is where a lot of people from sources like Writing With Color may come from) would be different from that of people born, raised, and still living in their country of origin but it still provides a good insider’s view. Plus that point of view would would also be really useful for writing a character who is an immigrant or descended from immigrants

5 Likes
88

You know, we could say the exact same thing to you; are you aware of how many scholarly papers have been refuted in the past? Or how stupid they were even though they had the “academic” stamp on it?

To be honest I don’t want scholars arguing what they should call me or how they should describe me, even much less if they are not Asian like me. I don’t care how persuasive they are, if they ever accept “yellow” as valid, they are going to have huge problems.

You sound quite elitist here to me, pretty much disregarding “popular” sources and deeming the scholarly ones automatically more trustworthy.

I’ll take the popular sources over the academic ones any day when it comes to people; if Asian people ourselves tell you not to call us “yellow” or use “almond eyed” or “slanted” when describing our eyes, but the academic source (written by someone who’s not even a part of said group) says it’s fine, who are you going to listen to?

I don’t care how many titles or awards someone has, if they have an IQ of 200 or whatever; if they insult me I’m not going to be pleased, and I’m not going to keep quiet.

9 Likes
89

1538×1078 91.6 KB

90

But, but, I liked oriental it was so exotic, so kung-fu mysticism and all that. :cry:
For the cute guys it’s no problem they’re always cute guys first and foremost, but how am I going to describe the rest now? Does that also mean I can’t use occidental to describe myself anymore? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

1 Like
91

The question How do you describe an Asian person without using the word “Asian”? I’m actually a little insulted at the question and some if the answers provided by the other users as someone who is from Asia, but at the same time I’m amused by the question and the answers provided as well. :expressionless:

I think @Avery_Moore should be clear as to exactly what Asian specific are you aiming for. What I’m trying to say is that Asia is a very large and populous continent which means there is going to be a lot of people who are going to represent Asia and a lot of countries that are going to differ depending on again what country specific you are trying to connect them with.

You can’t really describe a person from any continent and let it be the basis as to what the whole continent is supposed to look like. Not everyone from Asia has almond shaped eye, white skin, brown skin, dark skin, short height, good at martial arts (lols okay I’m just stretching the comment and being slightly sarcastic) etc.

Heck, I’m Asian, but I don’t have a name with Lee, Chin, Zhu, Sakura, Hotaro, etc. Which are popular and easy to place as people descending from Asia because when people generally think of Asia the top things they think are Japan, China, and Korea. True, yes, but there are other countries as well that are from Asia lols.

There are 48 countries in Asia, not counting countries that are dependencies or other territories. (Dependencies - a dependent or subordinate thing, especially a country or province controlled by another.)

48 countries in Asia (Asian as a whole)
China - Eastern Asia
India - Southern Asia
Indonesia - South-Eastern Asia
Pakistan - Southern Asia
Bangladesh - Southern Asia
Japan - Eastern Asia
Philippines - South-Eastern Asia
Viet Nam - South-Eastern Asia
Iran - Southern Asia
Turkey - Western Asia
Thailand - South-Eastern Asia
Myanmar - South-Eastern Asia
South Korea - Eastern Asia
Iraq - Western Asia
Afghanistan - Southern Asia
Saudi Arabia - Western Asia
Malaysia - South-Eastern Asia
Uzbekistan - Central Asia
Nepal - Southern Asia
Yemen - Western Asia
North Korea - Eastern Asia
Sri Lanka - Southern Asia
Syria - Western Asia
Kazakhstan - Central Asia
Cambodia - South-Eastern Asia
Azerbaijan - Western Asia
United Arab Emirates - Western Asia
Tajikistan - Central Asia
Israel - Western Asia
Jordan - Western Asia
Laos - South-Eastern Asia
Kyrgyzstan - Central Asia
Lebanon - Western Asia
Singapore - South-Eastern Asia
Turkmenistan - Central Asia
State of Palestine - Western Asia
Oman - Western Asia
Kuwait - Western Asia
Georgia - Western Asia
Mongolia - Eastern Asia
Armenia - Western Asia
Qatar - Western Asia
Bahrain - Western Asia
Timor-Leste - South-Eastern Asia
Cyprus - Western Asia
Bhutan - Southern Asia
Brunei - South-Eastern Asia
Maldives - Southern Asia

Dependencies or other territories in Asia
Taiwan – Dependency of china
Hong Kong – Dependency of china
Macao – Dependency of china

See, Asian people are diverse. Same with any other continent and country for that matter. Asian people can’t be put into one description lols.

What I would recommend is to focus on the country that you want the character to be from. It could not be by looks, but maybe you could insert their clothing, name usage, and mannerism. Those are the things you really can’t take away from any person who descends on that specific country.

People are mixed and matched now. And what I mean with that line is that a person could have a mixed heritage say a his/her/their mother is from a Europe country then we have father from an Asian country. Want to bet that baby isn’t going to have the cookie cutter Asian look? Yet still be Asian or European for that matter.

Rather than focusing solely on how to describe what they physically look like. Try incorporate details that would give away as to where that person originated from. Like I stated clothes, name usage, and mannerism are good to include. Not just looks, please. Okay, I said my peace on this matter and I hope as an Asian that it clears up the whole describe Asian person without using the word “Asian”?

So many countries, so many Asians…:upside_down:

6 Likes
92

I tend to separate out the Middle-East from Asia proper though, and a lot of people with me, so Arab people and countries like Iraq, aren’t typically thought of as “Asian” where I come from. Similar story with India and Pakistan being their own subcontinent.

93

But that kind of thinking is wrong and misleading to appoint that you’ve disregarded the continent and the country of the Asian people who lives there. Like I previously stated people generally misunderstand that Asia is only known to popular Japan, China, and Korea which is true and false. That kind of thinking leads to people thinking that all Asian are like this and that which is not true. Thus, we have disagreement on what an Asian person should look like because people disregard their continent and country.

People would need geography class if they don’t even know the countries of different continent (Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, South America)

The OP asked specifically Asian as in a whole, they didn’t state what country or it would have been easier to give out specific traits that are common in that country of Asian origin. That means Asian should include all Asia or the question Asian is used wrongly to ask how to describe an Asian person.

1 Like
94

If you want to be strictly geographical about it then I’m an Eurasian, since we’re all on the same big continent. But because the Eurasian continent is so big is the exact reason why many people including myself divide it into smaller sub-regions, Europe, the Middle-East and India being chief among those.

1 Like
95

That’s actually… Kind of the problem with the word in the first place

I mean, when I wear the word ‘exotic’, the first things I think about are animals that ordinary veterinarians can’t treat (though a part of that may be because one of my friends owns like five snakes, a gecko, and two turtles and used to own birds) and the most “mystic” things about me are I guess the fact that I think I can see ghosts (long story, don’t ask) and that I can curse people, but the latter I learned through the internet, not by like any old mysterious traditions or anything.

That’s also kind of another issue, actually. When people talk about Asia, they usually mean just East Asia and sometimes parts of South East Asia, while every other region (which is most of the continent actually) is left in the dust :\ Not only do most people actually ignore them and issues they may face completely, but it also kind of creates intracommunity issues like pitting us against each other. At least in the US, when people call for Asian solidarity, they almost always only mean China, Japan, Korea, and maybe Vietnam and/or India and/or the Phillipines, rarely every part of Asia

But also, yes everything that @M-D-M said

I gave examples of what things are like from my culture since that’s all that I really know and all I have any type of authority on (Vietnam is kind weird in that sometimes it’s counted as South East because of the geography but other times it’s counted as East because it shares a lot culturally with East Asia. I honestly didn’t even know it was counted as South East until I was maybe 15) though I should’ve emphasized other regions of Asia more

Also, with what I mentioned earlier about how very pale skin is considered most desireable according to beauty standards: that’s true in a lot of places really, but actually it’s a problem too. Colorism is a big problem in a lot of places of the world, Asia especially. I know for a face skin whitening products are really popular in South, South East, and East Asia. My mom and I are both pretty light skinned, yet my mom is still obsessed with making sure that she doesn’t get sun tanned and uses skin lightning products and has tried to to push those onto me too my whole life. Darker skin as a whole is also important to represent as something other than ugly and undesirable. It’s not usually something that’s thought about in non-visual forms of media but I think it would be a good idea to do

But yeah, do a lot of research on all parts of Asia and figure out what particular regions you want to base things from. Asia has a ton of diversity even within one country. East Asia is pretty much the easiest to find information for, but, when you really look at it, it’s only a small part of Asia and it’s really important for other cultures to also get represented

7 Likes
96

Meh, the Op should be the one to clarify this. I could Argue with you until either one of us is blue to the face. I’m answering more for the OP’s question in regards that they made Asian as in a tern to describe Asia as a whole rather than as you would describe as smaller sub region. Which is fine and all but again my point is that the OP is using Asian as in it represent all Asia which is wrong. Again Op should be the one to clarify this.

Thank heavens someone gets it. I mean that in a good way because people lump Asia as in those countries only when in fact they separate the other countries :cry:

3 Likes
97

The question is sort of funny. Hello, Asian here yet I don’t really know where to start but the opening question is just making me laugh at the moment.

Okay, here we go! I will start by saying I agree with what @anon86661845 and @M-D-M are talking about. They basically stated what I want to type here.

Question is a little odd considering there are different ways to go about describing someone from Asia. I think @Avery_Moore is more targeting East Asia? Do correct me if I’m wrong, but the think a question revision is in-order like what again those two stated above me.

As they have suggested:

Just to add this as well.[quote=“idonotlikeusernames, post:90, topic:26400”]
But, but, I liked oriental it was so exotic, so kung-fu mysticism and all that. :cry:
[/quote]
Not every Asian know kung-fu and all the shenanigan of mysticism. That in itself is generalizing Asian people and that is what both @M-D-M and @anon86661845 are trying to correct. As they said.

Even added the martial arts sarcasm. Funny but true in this case since Asian people are assumed to be chop chop masters or exotic creatures from another world.

I don’t think is a jab, more on the line that people disregard other countries that are part of Asia and then people who’re Asian and get their country removed is insulted. Can anyone be happy with that? How about someone saying I don’t consider insert country part of insert continent since they have their own subcontinent. Anyone? Nope, which is why I think that post was made.

Oh oh and i do believe before this goes way in over every bodies heads and tails lets really not disregard other countries just because we think they don’t belong or we assume or we put them in a different place and they are not part of the continent. People who do that in my opinion are no more worst or better, and it really makes me wonder if they know geography like at all.

2 Likes
98

I think that castigating the OP for not specifying “where in Asia” is missing the point. The OP’s objective is to allow a greater diversity of ethnic representation in a fantasy world that does not include the continents as we know them. Representing black or white characters is easy: representing people who are neither is somewhat more difficult, as demonstrated by the discussion arising here imply from the word “Asian”. I believe that what’s wanted here are general tips that could apply to describing anyone who might be from anywhere in Asia–India, the Philippines, Korea, whatever. Not anything specific.

The alternative would be a fantasy world where all the characters are either black or white and nothing else. I don’t think that’s what any of us want.

3 Likes
99

I haven’t seen anything that I’d consider castigation, just people giving information about how they want their home continent to be thought about. Americans especially (I can’t speak to other countries although I’m pretty sure it’s similar) tend to just lump all of Asia into East Asia, and then all of that into China and Japan. OP asked for info about Asian representation, and even if not all of the response is necessarily directly applicable to a fantasy world, it’s a lot of food for thought to help make sure they don’t make missteps with what should be a gesture of acceptance.

I understand your concern here, but that line of thinking is dangerously close to “be thankful for whatever acknowledgment you can get.” People shouldn’t have to settle for incorrect representation–if a writer isn’t willing to listen to constructive information and learn, then any attempts at portraying anyone else–well for one, they stop being well meaning when the author stops caring about the actual people they’re writing about–but they’ll also probably be half baked and stereotypical

2 Likes