Moving this to a different thread due to author wishes, but you do broach a more general question here.
The best answer I can give is that in most games the romance options are some of the most exquisitely detailed characters and generally losing even one fleshed out RO won’t be compensated by dozens of background or minor characters being canonically gay.
At best such a trade-off would be sacrificing some quality gay representation for the often stereotyped quantity. If forced to choose I prefer the former.
ROs are also the characters for whom the sexuality is the most obvious, and thus it’s the place where representation (or lack thereof) is felt the strongest. I’m not saying that all games should have gay ROs, but if they’ve got straight ROs, I feel that they should. I’m also not saying it needs to be balanced. 2 straight ROs, 2 bi, and 1 gay would be fine by me, as long as the gay/bi characters were good. Ironically, I feel that the representation afforded there makes it actually better than 1 straight RO and 4 bi, even though gay players get more options in the latter. (Obviously, though, 1 straight, 1 gay, 3 bi would be best… )
In the specicific though situation, the specific character of this game was meant to be from the beginning bisexual, no one asked for a planned gay character to change to something else that is different from what they are meant to be portrayed…I don’t see why not both sexies not enjoy too this RO equally since he was planned to be bisexual from the start? Why not all of us enjoy this character?
As the writer said there are plenty of gay characters in the game; just because they are not RO
doesn’t mean they are not represented in the game.
I don’t really want to turn this into the “Gay Representation in Seven Heirs” thread, but…
Except that this ignores the fact that we (as in gay players) have already lost Mavrys as a gay RO. I don’t want to tell you to “play as a guy to get the gay RO”, (I don’t like playing as a woman to get straight ROs) but for Mavrys, even that’s not going to help. The sole gay RO was cut and replaced with a bi RO (with quite a different character, too), and this is the problem. We’re not trying to steal your favourite RO, we’re asking to get back the representation that was taken from us.
At this rate it might be easier if the author just made all of the ROs bisexual, and just save all of the representation for secondary characters…
I am not gay however my own opinion is if you have any straight romance you have to have a homosexual one. If you don’t follow the everything is bi or player sexual yo have to give a option to everyone.
And about the heir game I really think a bisexual is not same as homosexual and should not consider a homosexual romance . Maybe a compromise should be switch a character even being bi when pc is gay character present as gay. Just my two cents
I don’t have any problem make all guys bi, although Atheron was meant to be straight, same as Senetha…he was planned to be bi, neither straight nor gay, same for a gay. It would be better to make a new a gay character from the beginning than change already set up sexual orientations to something else.
But if they made all bi, at least everyone could enjoy their romances
Storytelling wise is not the same as a gay or straight one. Many gays doesn’t want being treated as girl called queen or being reminded each five seconds that their relationship previously was banging all girls in the kingdom.
Say I have my straight romances you have to conform with romance not tailored for your orientation because i want have all is selfish iny opinion
I completely understand where you are coming from here and agree that it is an issue that the author should address if she is able to. Mavrys was not cut to remove gay representation and I think this intention is important to remember when discussing this situation. The character Mavrys was cut because he was creating unsolvable issues in the story. Removing the exclusive gay RO was an unintended consequence.
I have a feeling that the author in question is wracking her brains out trying to come up with a new solution to the newly created problem (unintended consequence) when Mavrys was cut.
Either way we should respect her as an author who is trying to execute the vision of her story, one that includes Gay representation in more ways than the majority of the games and books have.
This is where I have to respectively disagree. Representation in Seven Heirs is far from being secondary. One of your brothers (a major character throughout the story) is gay, if I remember correctly and I am sure there are more examples, both primary and secondary that I’m forgetting or not yet aware of.
Making characters player-sexual in orientation is another topic in another thread.
This also bothers me. We don’t know the situation with Seven Heirs … there could be other issues of representation involved here as well. If another character is written, then the gender balance would shift to 6 guy RO and 4 girl RO … that imbalance (if gender representation is important to the author) might then compel or force the author to write another female RO …
Adding one character to a story is complicated and hard as it is - adding two is just that much worse.
Before taking this any further I ask the community to wait and see what is decided by @Fawkes and then respect whatever it is that is decided.
I believe we can provide her with actionable feedback - we have.
She acknowledged that and said she will work on trying to find a solution that works for both her story and the community and asked to drop the discussion.
Putting forth demands isn’t productive in this case; being too forceful on championing a pet solution might even drive the author away from her project if we are not careful as a community.
Oh, I’m not blaming the author. A completely redundant character as an RO (especially if the rest are all interesting, plot-important characters) would not be fun, and I certainly don’t want the only gay RO to be that. This does mean that adding in an extra character would probably just end up with exactly the same problem, though…
For what it is worth I think some form of player-sexual is still the best solution if you’re making a game with a small cast of characters and ro’s. For me personally that means less than six as with six or more we can at least get one gay, one bi and one straight option of either gender.
Unless the game is gay or lesbian (or straight, but that is already the vast majority) exclusive.
On that front I’m sad we haven’t heard from the developer of the “Beast within” for a while now as that would have been either a gay prince game or a lesbian princess game with all ro’s to match.
Which isn’t my intention either, I was just responding to the statement of another user who didn’t seem to understand why gay ro’s are generally a much bigger deal to many of us then some token, background representation and since I thought that question and its answers have some universal value in today’s media landscape I moved it here. As in general I do not think dozens of (very) minor background characters in general make up for one RO.
Or more general across all media, dozens of minor background characters in general do not make up for the loss of one major character. Particularly since very minor characters are lucky to have even one distinguishing trait and for gay ones those mostly tend to run towards rather bad stereotypes.
I should note that even though Olarion is one of the eponymous “Seven Heirs”, and is definitely not going to be a minor background character, I still feel that his inclusion does not make up for the loss of the gay RO.
Nevertheless Olarion is not a minor character and wasn’t ret-conned or changed in an attempt to mollify anyone. Olarion was written the way he is from the beginning and the representation he represents is much more than the “general” or “generic” situation brought forth almost as a battering ram towards Fawkes’s decision.
You may not be intentionally harassing the author but I am going to say this: these last two posts are assuming too much and not giving her enough credit.
If she had planned for a major character to be representative as written and put forth for years - what is to say there are not more major characters that won’t be representative?
Just as I defend your authorship in Totem Force when it comes to RO and allowing you to write the story you envision, I am going to defend her right as well.
I certainly hope people are respecting her and allowing her time to figure things out. My fear is that some will respect her in public but might not in private. I know this has happened to other authors here, including well known ones.
I hope she is okay … If not I will shout any person harassing her. People harassment is a not go. No game is enough important to make a person feel bad. More if is the author of the story you love . Author need their privacy.
Respectfully, I do not feel that this statement is fair to @ParrotWatcher, either. I do not think he said anything that reflected poorly on the author, whom he clearly respects. The “last two posts” were not questioning the author’s ability, but were referring to the unintended effects on representation. The first of those two even says that he is “not blaming the author” and is expressing sympathy for why this is a thorny dilemma. The second is just stating, well, that a major gay character does not have the same effect in representation as a gay RO does.
And, not just talking about Seven Heirs, these are different kinds of representation and must be considered as such. They have a very different impact on the reader because romances have a much closer effect on a character’s personal story, in a way that some players will have more to experience than others will. Situations where you end up penalized for playing a gay character are not ideal. Non-RO characters wouldn’t have this effect, because any player would be able to appreciate their content.
(On the flip side, it’s also good to include gay non-ROs because that way you’ll be sure to have gay representation even for heterosexual playthroughs.)
So… these forms of representation are qualitatively different because it’s not just a matter of what representation exists anywhere in the story, but what the player will get out of it. For an extreme example, if a game included a slew of gay characters, but only had heterosexual romances, I don’t think there’s any way we could consider that good representation.
This is generally applicable to any game.
Edit: And in the interests of clarity and full disclaimers and all that, I do understand that the Seven Heirs situation is entirely in the best intentions. Sometimes tricky situations happen and there’s no clear best solution. That’s why discussions about these issues are so important. And even if the decision ends up involving some tradeoffs, I think we all respect what went into this. I do think it is useful to talk about this in general terms, as well, being this thread’s intent, in the interests of being relevant to any similar future issues that may arise.
I just hope they let her make the story she wanted from the beginning with the unique characters and their set up chacteristics and not harass or guiltrip her on doing/change something, things that happen in so many other authors …it’s her story to tell.
This conversation has made me think a bit, so here’s a diferent question:
In a game where all the “true” RO’s are available to all readers (by being bi-, pan-, poly- or playersexual), what do you think about characters who are flings or one time hook-ups being more restricted in heir sexuality?
Say, 5 bi RO’s and 2 straight + 2 bi + 2 gay flings, or 2 pan + 2 bi RO’s and 2 bi + 1 gay fling, just to give some examples.
Would that be possitive or negative representation?
Does it invoke any feelings of “being gay is good enough for flings, but not RO’'s”, or does it seem fair and understandable?
Does it enforce any negative stereotypes I haven’t thought of?
)
…it’s her story to tell. 