Cliches that make you squirm

With the traditional orc vs. human thing in most fantasy setting, it’s usually the never ending centuries of war situation or at the least the orcs tend to have a raider/barbarian conquerer society which clashes with the more settled human one, so I don’t see it out of the question of either group just killing each other on sight because of that simple fact. The humans have what the orcs want and the humans are defending it.

Because I’m viewing it as the reader/outsider, I don’t see it as them all being evil, so much as I see them as being all violently hostile but to the average human within that setting it comes off as evil, because the orcs are trying to kill them so its perfectly okay to return the favor.

All I’m saying is yeah, WE know that a particular race probably isn’t all “evil” but that doesn’t really matter in the scheme of the story since we’re usually only getting the human side of it (or the rarer orc side of it) and it’s fine if they’re all just written off as “evil” for the purposes the protagonist’s view point.

If this is a story that’s involving an attempt at peace between these two races and making an effort to show both sides (or some human has been taking care of a baby orc since birth) then yes obviously there is a greater need for complexity.

Also in fantasy and scifi settings, you don’t even need to have realistic morality going on anyway. Demons are a fine example of an all evil race.

@EndMaster

I think Havenstone is talking about when media treat certain races as “evil” in the same way DnD does. There are some very rare exceptions, but generally the evil races in DnD are evil for the sake of being evil. There are entire species and races that get off on torture, murder, or worse for no explainable reason. These things called displacer beasts, for example, are tentacle limbed cats that go about killing things for pleasure. Thats it. No further rhyme or reason as to why they do it. No explanation as to why they would develop such a disadvantageous evolutionary trait. Nothing. They are just evil cats who kill people, and make silent cat prayers to wake up one day with the ability to do a villainous laugh.

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I agree with folks who dislike the whole evil race thing. It would be interesting to see some sort of war council where more reasonable members voice some concerns about killing civilians. collateral damage, etc, but obviously most stories are told from side and we’re supposed to cheer with no reservations when the heros slice through the Orc ranks like a buttery spread.

With individuals, I don’t need much explanation especially when it comes to powerful people. I think all of us normal folks would be very tempted to just do whatever the hell we want (likely with some limits, as most people wouldn’t go out of their way to hurt kids and things like that). I mean, if you randomly gave 100 real like people the powers of say Magneto or something, how many would use their powers for gain? I’m guessing all. And many of them would have no qualms with overtly stealing cars, robbing banks, etc as they know no one could stop them.

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It’s possible for a differnt race to have a very different set of values, they would do things that we humans consider evil but for them it’s something normal.

Alternatively, they might be just pawns of an evil master who deliberately made them evil, or even created them according to his/her evil plans.

In some cases, different species are natural enemies. (i.e. demons and humans.)

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just thought of another annoying cliche:
the “the wise guy/girl who only talks in riddles” and the “wise guy/girl who only talks in poem”

sounding like the bastard child of a fortune cookie and a poetry book doesn’t make you wise. sure wise people often have a way with words,but NO ONE talks like that in real life.

@Saint_Nicholas It’s not him specifically, but his “voice” does not make a good “character,” yet every role I’ve seen him that’s his defining characteristic.

It would be a nice change to see humans and orcs as close allies for once against all the other races especially those uppity knife eared elfs.
Now back to the original reason for this post
People never reloading in movies
The whole I’m out for revenge til I meet a in most cases girl of similar background but forgives instead of hates
Hero’s that train their rears off only for the next guy to be stronger then the last one
The whole friendship makes you stronger crap
How in video games you character can be lvl99 or just went tho hundreds of monsters with no problem yet the enemy shows up with a few soldiers and you immediately surrender without a fight…robot chicken said it best (put your hands up!..I just killed a fairy you know I’m just getting started) not the full quote because I’m sure I would get in trouble for it.

If I have read this wrong, then I apologize in advance.
Otherwise, what you’ve just said is highly offensive and very, very disrespectful.

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He is clearly a troll if you look at his other posts and will certainly be banned very soon. Wish these kinds of people would just stay in their hate filled corner and leave us civilized people to have intelligent discussions.

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I don’t have a problem with cliches, so long as they are presented in a new way. Cowboy and Western? Make the player a Marshal. Vampires? Set it in modern day with competing clans. Zombies? Make it about the characters, not the monsters.
Come to think of it, Zombie Exodus and Walking Dead both do this, characterisation with zombies as a framing device…

Anyway, anything old can be new again if presented differently. That’s today’s lesson.

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Killing characters off for shock value. I always think that death should carry more emotional weight in a story and not a ‘they’re dead now, haha got you!’ to the audience. I think that’s the only one that really ticks me off.

That’s not to say I have a problem with characters dying. Some of my favorite stories have pretty bleak endings. I just hate when it’s thrown in there without a care and then other characters forget that person ever existed.

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Falstanna woke up, stood and surveyed the battlefield around her. The fires of broken catapults, the darkening sky signalling the All-Father’s disfavour, the call of carrion come to claim a feast. She was hurt, bad; leaning on her spear while trying to put pressure on a wound in her lower abdomen.

As a shield-maiden severing under the grizzled Harold Wartooth, she was use to war. She had been called multiple times to battle and seemed to relish it, rather than being one of her sisters that stays at home. It was only when she had seen the battle, Viking vs Viking, Brothers against Sisters, that this looked like something that would come at the end times.

She slowly limped her way along a clear path. The skies had started to rain and she didn’t have a destination in mind, rather she was just wandering around, trying to see if anyone around her was still alive. She hobbled a ways more towards the coast, the smell of blood, newly rotting flesh and newly drenched earth assaulting her senses.

It was when she reached the coast that she saw what the catapults must have been for. Row upon row of longboats that had been used to carry her brothers and sisters, all were burning half submerged along the beach. There would be no way for her to get back to the frozen lands of the north that she called home.

Falstanna felt her legs grow weak at the sight of all this pointless destruction. She tried to hold herself, using all her strength to keep herself standing with the help of the spear but it was in vain. Her now de-pressurised wound started to ache and bleed. She knelt, replaced her hand on the wound and started to cry.

“I’m a Shield-Maiden of the North, an honourable Norse fighter in service to Harold Wartooth, the most respected and proud leader I’ve ever had the chance of serving. I don’t cry.” Falstanna cried in anguish to no-one.

She slowly dragged herself to a nearby cliff face, hoping the cliff would provide shelter from the rain. She leaned her back into the smooth stone, laid down her spear beside her and then she let out her breath.

She was assaulted with pain. She quickly figured that the walking to the beach had taken it’s toll and she couldn’t go any further. She also kept her breathing short, to avoid the pain from taking a longer breath. She hadn’t managed to see the wound yet, what with her armour in the way but she figured it was deep enough to cause alot of bleeding if pressure wasn’t held.

Sitting at the beach, watching the long ships burn with the now heavier rain battering everything around her gave Falstanna time to think. She remembered her childhood, reading the old tales and being wondered by them. Her teenage years, where she dedicated herself to the spear and learning how to take care of a house. Then to adulthood, where she was constantly called to battle, favouring the thrill of combat to being stuck home raising kids. She never found the time to just… stop and think.

All those battles were just blurs to her now. Indeed, she didn’t even know how she was wounded or knocked out. All this battle, fighting with ourselves when we could be fighting Britons or Goths or whatever looked at her funny. It all seemed so pointless in the long run.

“It wasn’t all pointless… was it… All-Father…?” Falstanna looked up at the darken sky, expecting a reply but found none. A single tear rolled down her cheek as the light behind her eyes started to fade. She had long since stopped trying to put pressure on her wound, she was simply too weak. She closed her eyes, let out her breath… then slumped against the beach cliff.

All that could be heard was the calls of crows feasting and the roar of the rain dousing the fires of war.

Epilogue:
Falstanna felt nothing, her mind and body had long since entered the dark void. The very identity that was her, she could slowly being felt lost to the black nothingness. Death had claimed her and was making sure she wouldn’t escape. Falstanna felt… wait, Falstanna felt? She followed the feeling, a physical motion. She could feel her body being shaken, she followed the motion and emerged in bight light.

“Sister. Sister, please wake up.” Falstanna groggy opened her eyes. She stared dazily at the winged figure. Wait… wings? The figure infront of her gave a soft smile. She helped Falstanna to her feet and was surprised that she could stand. She reached down and indeed, there was no wound. There wasn’t even any blood. Falstanna got a better look at her rescuer.

Long white wings, regal presence, finely crafted armour. Falstanna knew that she had been visited by a Valkyrie. The figure made a motion for her to pick up her own spear.

“I am Skuld. I have been sent by the All-Father, who has recognised your honour in battle and valour at death. He has extended an invitation for you to join him in Valhalla.” Skuld extended her hand. Falstanna hesitated for only a moment, before she took up her spear, and grabbed Skuld’s hand.

The only thing to go through her mind as they disappeared off the battlefield was:

"This was worth it. The pain, the killing, the loss of friends, of never having a family, of forever seeking battle, of even her own death.

This was worth it."

Now I’m not saying all character deaths have to be portrayed in such a fashion, but I agree with you, there has to be meaning to a character dying. How it affects the people around said character and how it affects the reader have to be taken into consideration when planning a character to die.

What I wanted to prove by writing this is that any character that is killed, should be given meaning. Use that death somehow in the story, not just to provide shock value.

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I’m impressed, have you written this just now or is it from some pre-existing story of yours?

Heh. G(l)orious.
Battles, for the sake of battles and fighting to fight another day. As long as there is humankind, there shall be conflict and spilled guts.
In some other universe she would be roaming the battlefields anew, bringing terror and bloodshed to every theatre of war she treads on, for that has been and again is her purpose as she is now one of -his- champions.

Blood for the blood god!

@WulfyK
More spontaneous than anything really. I find it easier to type with a single goal in mind then just type away. I have to want it though, I find forcing myself to write ruins the creativity.

@Chaana
I think she’d be more inclined to be Howling Banshee of the Eldar, rather than something aligned to Chaos.

Anyway. Remember, a story can be told a 1,000 different ways and they can all come from the same source. If you must use cliches, use them in a new way. This way you create something new.

  1. I dislike the “race against the clock” it just wears me out if its serialized fiction. 24 is a perfect example after the first season it just get tiresome to me. This includes the bomb always being deactivated with 1 second left. A bunch or reality shows do this now too. “We have to finish building this and we are so behind schedule!”

  2. Releasing a bad guy who has flat out told you that the first thing he is going to do is come after you again. I liked the way Firefly handled this but Malcolm was always an anti-hero.

  3. Overly convoluted plots is getting old too. The endings are always a huge let down. Lost and X-Files come to mind.

Well, she lacks a ‘war mask’ to be a normal aspect warrior. Humans just don’t grow up with that concept, neither do they get taught that way. Although she could probably just be an exarch, since those are the eldars that cannot take off theirs and thus have a mind only fit for war, but not for society.

And about clichés: yes, they are all just a matter of presentation. When I started playing Mass Effect I could not help but groan at the major plot - you are to be the human’s first galactic James Bond and save the world. Well, worlds. A whole lot of them. Also, you mostly just get there in time for your very own moments of deus ex friggin huge space ship. Clichéd sacrifices, one for many. Super human theme - Shepard fires anti materiel rifles whose recoils exceed that what humans are cable of handling. Races at war for aeons unite under the disapproving glare of Shepard, as if they were kids that have done their parents wrong. Also other stuff.

But I felt awesome being the clichéd badass who saves the galaxy by kicking lots of ugly machine butts (and the butts of your allies, by saying the magical words of “I told you so”.)
And then I even offer myself up for the galaxy of which I’m not sure I even like, so, dames and gents in distress, you better be worshipping my evaporated corpse for millennia to come for saving you all, even though I hated half of you guys.

Oh boy, clichés. -rubs hands together-
Pardon if I repeat some, I skimmed through most of the thread.

  • ‘Elemental’ powers. I don’t know if you could call it a cliché, but it is definitely overused. Can people not think of any other powers or abilities other than control over water/fire/ice/electricity/earth/etcetc. It gets a little irritating. Okay, a lot a bit irritating.

  • Goody-two shoe protagonists and completely irredeemable villains. Not all heroes (and I use the term hero loosely here) have to be moral, honest, or even nice, and not all villains have to be (or even should be) 100% evil down to their core with not one positive thing about them. Something similar to the plot of MegaMind, for instance, but going even further. I hate it when people make characters and their personalities/alignments so black and white.

  • Speaking of black and white, any instance where ‘black’ or dark colors, anything related to the darkness and night time, is inherently assumed to be evil and bad, while anything ‘white’ or light colored, related to the light and daytime, is inherently assumed to be good. Is this where racism came from, or did people get this from racism? Either way, you can see the parallels here.

  • Old people (sages, wizards, etc) that are masters of their craft (I’m okay with this, given their age) BUT are JUST as good, if not better, than their younger counterparts / apprentices at their age, and show no signs of skill or body degradation. Sorry but both your mind and your body would degrade with time, and while under fantasy settings they can get away with some of it, they just push it too far.

  • The ‘Mwahaha’ laugh. If I see it used one more time . . .

  • Prophecies that are either way too specific (in which case, it kind of makes the purpose of a prophecy redundant), or way too generalized (yet somehow, the public get the idea that the MC must, for some reason, be the one the prophecy refers to, without any real supporting evidence).

  • Legendary mega weapons that just so happens to be the villain’s only weakness. Convenient.

  • ‘Instant’ blushing. I blame anime for this (as much as I actually love anime). People apparently don’t know that it actually takes you like 30s-1m for your cheeks to actually show a blush… Also, representing blushes as streak marks. What?

I have more but I’ll slide these here for now. <.<

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It’s a cliche, but I disagree that it’s unrealistic for disciplines where wisdom is essential. I just today read a blog post and article in my own field by two old sages (Robert Chambers and Amartya Sen) which are better than 90% of what I see from younger folk like myself.

And cascat, on your third point: have you seen Battlestar Galactica? So much good about that show… why did they choose to spend so much time on needless plot convolutions that they never once managed to pull off well?

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