But people made this genders and pronouns, I said that I don’t see why people prefer to have a completely different gender identity instead of being gender non conformist, i mean instead of finding or creating a gender identity that suit your behaviour, how you look or dress etc don’t just keep the gender identity you have and not act like it? I mean if woman meant what it meant many years ago then most women today wouldn’t identify as women anymore, I don’t know if I am giving the best example but this is how i see it. And to be clear I don’t care about about other’s gender identity, but I feel weird when I see new pronouns I never saw in my life.
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I think there’s a misunderstanding about what privilege is, when applied to LGBTQ and feminism issues.
I often hear people, normally straight, white men, sarcastically asking, “Well where’s my privilege?” When someone who’s a minority points out they’re acting entitled, and ergo privileged, when something isn’t catered to them, or they’re reminded that their hardship isn’t systematic.
Privilege isn’t necessarily having anything innately better. Privilege, in this respect, is about not having something innately worse. In the US, a straight, cis white male starts at sum zero, in general. He may not have the money the 1% do, but he also don’t have to worry about the cops being called on him at a national park, because he and his small family are just trying to have a picnic, and his skin tone is dark. (Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/5/29/18644543/mississippi-kampground-of-america-gun-picnic-black-couple-charges-video )
A straight, cis white woman starts off just slightly behind the sum zero. Sexism is alive and well, after all. And any person of color is even further behind.
I’m not touching the subject of wealth, because that’s not what this is about. Anyone who is wealthy can start far ahead of the sum zero.
What this is about is how privilege, in this context, refers to the privilege of not being systematically discriminated against. The privilege of not having your history wiped away, because it’s inconveneient to the powers that be (ie: any indigenous populations, the Black Wall Street of Tulsa, the loathsome integration programs meant to to strip indigenous children of their heritage). The privilege of not being looked down on because of your skin tone, your sex, your gender, or your disabilities.
In short, it’s the privilege of being able to live your life relatively uninterrupted due to your brith.
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I’m a trans man. I promise you, acting ‘manly’ while using she/her pronouns, and being a trans man, are very, very different.
I’m going to step out, for now, because I can feel myself getting steadily more agitated. This isn’t a callout, just— if anyone responds to me and I don’t reply, that’s why.
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By that logic anyone can be called privileged, and you can’t really tell who is more privileged, i mean would a gay man be more privileged than a straight woman because he is a man and she receives sexism or would she be more privileged because she doesn’t experience homophobia while he does? Because of this I don’t think privileged means anything because it is very subjective
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I’m going to repeat what I said above:
As to this:
By creating these pronouns they are keeping the gender identity that they have … that is exactly what they are doing.
By trying to force a pronoun use on a person, even if you are o.k. with them not acting like a person in that pronoun category it can make them feel disrespected, invalidated, dismissed, alienated, or dysphoric ( often all of the above.)
It is all about respecting each other’s identity.
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Hey @Eiwynn?
Dumb question. Could you specify at the top of the chart which pronouns are possessive and like (grammar-wise)? That would be helpful!
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I’m going to ask a copy-editor to do this, and I’ll edit the chart above once they do … @Mary_Duffy or @Fiogan … would one of you be so kind as to help here? My skills in this area are weak.
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No, it isn’t subjective, it’s relative. Yes, someone will have privilege over someone else in a given situation like the ones you describe. You can’t say it doesn’t mean anything because it’s relative. You can’t deny the systemic oppression of an entire gender, race, or sexuality just because one can always find someone more oppressed.
You also might want to read more about a concept called intersectionality.
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I mean, they’re correlated already with he/she his/her himself/herself in the headers. Presumably for English speakers it is clear which means what?
I tried editing @Eiwynn’s cool chart but I couldn’t do it neatly, and it felt weird to be saying he/she is nominative, his/her possessive and/or oblique, himself/herself reflexive ??
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If it’s too much trouble, then don’t worry about it. I haven’t reviewed grammar rules in years, so this is probably a ‘me’ problem.
Heck, I don’t even know what two out those three terms mean.
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This is another way in which there is invalidating of non-binary gender identities.
The gender identity they have is the one they consciously identify as, not one that you or others think they should have. People outside the gender binary don’t start in the gender binary – they start in their actual identity but are mislabeled as being gender binary and have to discover their actual identity through exploration and research.
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I edited the post… does that work @AChubbyBlackCat?
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That works. Thank you!
This is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at the individuals themselves. Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes the thread to derail.
Please also remember that it is often not so much what ones opinion is that causes friction, but how one chooses to express that opinion. Using negatively-charged value words are a good way to start friction, as is generalization and sniping. Personal comments lead to friction and flaming.
Sniping back and forth will often lead to the system closing the thread down, let’s avoid this if we can.
*Finally, if you see disrespectful posts please do not reply to them. Rather, please use the report feature and let forum staff deescalate friction.
@trevers17 - I am going to edit your post a bit. Feel free to PM me if you have concerns.
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Go for it! Sorry if I came off as cross - I tried to be tactful. 
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Oh wow.
Oh my gosh. @Eiwynn, everyone… thank you. I slept through this whole thing and never expected to wake up to this - not the part with people not understanding neopronouns, totally expected that lol - but the staff and community support and explanations and a freaking chart? I’m just extremely emotional right now and crying a little because none of you had to do this and I never, ever would have expected you to, but you did, and the entire HC writing and editorial experience (thank you @ladybird and @Mary_Duffy <3), has been just… unprecedently supportive in everything I’ve written, queer/trans/diversity-wise, and I have never experienced that in my life.
Many other publishers and editors… do not do this. They should, but they don’t, and they much more often criticize and undermine and try to scare their writers out of being inclusive or groundbreaking or writing their own selves and experiences and that is the worst, most abandoned/not-valued/actually-censored feeling in the world I wouldn’t wish on anyone. And it’s entirely normal and expected by now and I’m so used to having to fight not only reader opposition but editorial and publishing, like it’s just a thing that happens - but it’s still the worst feeling.
This might be the best. I hope everyone here knows how amazing they are and just… how bizarre-o world upside-down my life is right now seeing all this. I honestly, truly cannot thank everyone here enough.
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You’re such a nice and lovely person @RoAnnaSylver, I seriously admire you!
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All I want to know, as a copy editor, is if it’s “themselves” or “themself.” I typically revert to “themselves” as the more linguistically invisible term, though I know both are technically valid.
If I saw “it” or"itself" in regards to any sentient creature in a piece I was editing, I would change it to “they” and"themselves" unless the creature self-identified as such (or unless the boss told me not to). If wild animals and sailing vessels are granted personal pronouns, so should sentient characters.
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It’s usually “themself” for people who use they/them! (I’ve only seen the plural version very rarely, and then it’s not usually referring to gender.) And a couple people do use “it/itself”, but it’s again super rare and kind of a reclaiming thing for the times they’ve been dehumanized, all “heck yeah i’m a b**ch!”-style. So yeah, good rule to never call someone “it” unless you know for absolute sure that that’s the right pronoun!
And thank you so much @Roby95. I’m doing my best, ha.
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Cool! Good to know.
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