A friendly reminder: death from suffocation is also painful. Not to mention the smoke would sting MC’s eyes and burn their lungs.
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What do you mean collared? I thought that the collar that sister put on us had disappeared after resurrecting i didnt see any mention of it in book 2? and im sure leon didnt did it for pity but for ilya and saine probably he even punched me in the dungeon so yeah he definitely didn’t do it for the mage but who know
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I am sorry, but the concept of “resurrection by consent” is so fucking funny to me.
Arcadia and Param
Am I biased? Yes, but so are you.
You can’t just headcanon something into this debate, make the faction/character you are against look worse, and call it a day. I am on Arcadia side, but that doesn’t mean I should say shit like “uhmm actually, Jullius ate arcadian babies and is literally the devil himself” because Param did very little for arcadians.
Also the whole Tahlia debate was MEANT to be subjectional, you are either against her from the start because she treats you like a slave OR you first opinion of her is “yeah I can work with that” and she treats you like a normal person and even patreon spoilers meaning people’s opinion on her can vary big time. Meaning you can’t really argue points for one side or another, because first introduction is very important.
And you can say “Hey, but she planned to use the collar on you if you planned to run away, so she is very evil” and for that I have two points
1.This is meta talk. My mage never experienced anything like that so for them, Tahlia resurrected them in exchange for work. (I am not saying that your point is invalid, it’s just that people’s opinion on her vary like crazy, only because of that first interaction with her.
2. You are Tahlia. You spent an entire year to resurrect this one person. You give them your 75% charisma speech on why they should join you. They decline.
The point is, if you were in Tahlia shoes, you would probably also put a collar on that person.
This is a war. People need to do rational and pragmatic decisions to win a war. That’s just how things are. Is enslavement morally ambiguous? Yes, but something tells me 80% of this community would also do that because “I am roleplaying as cruel and pragmatic person, meaning it’s okay”, so I can’t say anything about it.
The thing is, its too early for calling names and deciding who is 100% evil with no redeeming qualities. Lets just wait for demo’s update, and then continue on this debate with new information we will probably have.
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Might of mixed it up but it was definitely ment more as a metaphysical leash in the sense of “anything outside this area is pain and suffering” and on the making stuff up part idk. The extra kindling was definitely written and it doesn’t matter if your all buddy buddy with Thalia. You might not be there against your will but you have no choice. I’m saying Leon’s (cookout and cooking hobbies aside) side was the mage’s choice. You only have the illusion of choice with Thalia. (And ya, I’m hella biased, won’t argue that)
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one part of how i played my mc in book 1 was that they particularly didn’t care about param as a country. they were in the right to defend themselves from annexation, sure, but my mc became a retainer bc the white fangs (and esp leon!) were the best friends they ever had, and they’d have gone to the ends of the world for them. i think it was pretty crushing to find out leon really didn’t return that, and they probably would have done things differently if they’d have known where they would end up.
that’s just my playthrough, but i think its easy to see why some mcs would appreciate the fundamental honesty of tahlia at least straight up telling you “i brought you back, and now i need you to do something for me, and i can’t let you go running off with critical state secrets” as opposed to leon being somewhat flakey.
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Unless I’m wrong, I don’t remember that the position of retainer that Leo gave us was our decision and being in that position forces us to follow the king’s orders. We had to use the phantasm throughout the war to the point of almost dying just so that Leon wouldn’t. believed in us a little at the moment of truth. I don’t know which is worse and about the illusion of choice you could say the same with leon since in the end it doesn’t matter what we do he kills us If the choices we make influence tahlia or no we will have to wait for more updates to decide that.
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While I definitely think its a more nuanced topic, its more likely Tahlias charisma was 50% WITH her powers assisting her.
I cant speak to every mage but suffice to say freedom is at least somewhere in most of their value systems, especially considering their relative lack of childhood and destruction of their family. Having someone holding the key to their happiness didnt work all that well for Mireil, but the MC more or less leapt at the opportunity to become a vassal for Leon for whatever reason.
It tells us, and Tahlia, that theres a threshold somewhere for whats acceptable. When she brings us back, I guarantee you her perception was that our need for vengeance would be greater than our other values.
What I find funny is that if its not enough, the MC can easily challenge that, giving Tahlia precious info to narrow down that cooperative threshold. If vengeance doesnt work, what about bloodline? If bloodline is irrelevant, what of justice? An MC that desires freedom away from the countries I dont think shes capable of understanding. She waits to bring up Eli until after we potentially affirm our lack of loyalty, something that should be a rather obvious sign that loosening the reins would instill a better sense of duty.
The scene can go several ways, but a mage that goes out of her way to openly challenge her in good faith isnt a seditionist and her handling of them is tyrranical at best.
Correct me if I’m wrong but this is all before Eli even gets brought up. By the time she guarantees our temporary help, she has a pretty full picture of who we are, and if we simply want peace or to be away from this life, she not only threatens us, she permanently taints the tool she so desperately wanted.
And its no one’s fault but her own.
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I have three mages for the game so far, and everything about how you view on the morals in the game can change depending on the character you’re playing, I think!
I can sympathize with my character who doesn’t want to be in Arcadia, and who genuinely dislikes Tahlia as both a leader and as a symbol of their now lost freedom. I can also sympathize with my character who thinks their true home was in Arcadia all along, and who would have to be dragged away screaming from the place if anyone in Param wanted them back.
The mage’s morals also sort of play into how your view of the factions will change, I think! Will your mage always value their loved ones, or will they value the many? Do they actually value themself the most and view everyone else as a tool, despite having disarmed the Saintess bomb at large risk to themself?
So I think it’s less a question of “Who’s right and who’s wrong?” and more “Who does your main character think is right and wrong? What will they do to be in the right?”
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I 100% agree with you.
The thing about this debate is that there is no right or wrong answer. Due to mage’s upbringing and their death, the reader can have their own opinion on what and how their Mage suppose to do.
Which is why I think there is no real point to these arguments outside of having a discussion, simply because you can’t really convince someone else on what their Mage should do and what kind of opinion they should have, because my Mage and your Mage can be completely different people.
For example, My mage IS clouded with thoughts of vengeance, meaning Tahlia didn’t really need to do anything to make him join her. For him, Tahlia is a person who gave him a second chance in life, and also gives a chance in revenge. every morally ambiguous thing that Tahlia does, my Mage would either ignore or try to rationalize, because for him, they are simply means to an end.
Your Mage can have an entire different point of view and see things completely different. Luckily, this game allows for that.
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Oh, how strongly I wish that here was the Notify-When-Demo-Update-Is-Out Button. This thread is just unfunny self-repetitive cycle. Leon is bad, Tahlia is bad, Ante is bad, Param is bad, Arcadia is bad…
@Kungoru and @K_Douglas are openly admitted that they are biased, but I’m thinking that everyone here (including me) is biased. Almost every time I open this thread, I see posts about why is Leon/Tahlia is bad, about why Param/Arcadia suck, about how kill Ante in the most painful way possible…
Sometimes someone post valid theories or new info, but then is again fall info good old flame war.
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For next time when the debate inevitably starts up again (next update maybe?) we gotta remember to link a few of these great comments like yours (@Kungoru yours specifically 
) to calm it down haha
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Summary
Seeing as everyone posts “their theme songs” might as well post mine
Requiem [With Lyrics] (I-No Theme) - Guilty Gear Strive OST - YouTube
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Heres hoping we get some fluff content soon.
In lighter news, I cant wait to be smacked upside the head when we meet Aunt Bess.
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I guess this is the perfect time for me to say that Shama by Nilfruits REALLY feels like a song for the Mage in general! It seems like a near-universal trait everyone gives them is a tendency to misplace their trust really badly. Or at least get it taken advantage of by certain family members. 
Lyrics
if i’m loving this superficial love, i guess i’m the only fool around here
“there’s nothing we can’t tell each other”
i guess i really did misjudge you from the start
if i’m loving this superficial love, i guess i’m the only villain around here
a farewell kiss, however many times
overlooking your wicked lies like an obedient dog
(i’m really just your dog)
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No, that is 
you are absolutely right! In a similar vein, I am extremely attached to Song for Zula by Phosphorescent as a mage song about a person getting disillusioned with love and deciding that, “I will not open myself up this way again.”
Lyrics
Some say love is a burning thing, that it makes a fiery ring
Oh but I know love as a caging thing
Just a killer, come to call from some awful dream
Ah and all you folks, you come to see
You just stand there in the glass looking at me
But my heart is wild and my bones are steam
And I could kill you with my bare hands if I was free
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Agreed, most of the arguments that pop can really be remedied by just going back through the forum. My whole argument tho is that it was the mage’s agency to choose to join up with Leon but it’s entirely up to the players on how they feel about Thalia. But what you and the mc feel about her is largely irrelevant due to the fact that no matter what your a tool. One that either happily chases the bone provided or the dog that need to be re-educated. At least when Leon exerts his authority it was one you willing adhered too.
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Songs for mage that I like:
Rammestein - Sonne: They’re the sun in more ways than one now…
lyrics
| 1…2…3…4…5…6…7…8…9 und aus | 1…2…3…4…5…6…7…8…9 and out |
|---|---|
| Alle warten auf das Licht | All waiting for the light |
| fürchtet euch, fürchtet euch nicht | have fear, fear not |
| die Sonne scheint mir aus den Augen | the sun shines out of my eyes |
| sie wird heut nacht nicht untergehen | she will not go down tonight |
| … und die Welt zählt laut bis zehn | … and the world counts loud to ten |
| eins… hier kommt die Sonne | one… here comes the sun |
| zwei… hier kommt die Sonne | two… here comes the sun |
| drei… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen | three… she’s the brightest star of all |
| vier… hier kommt die Sonne | four… here comes the sun |
| Die Sonne scheint mir aus den händen | the sun shines out of my hands |
| kann verbrennen kann euch blenden | can burn, can blind you |
| wenn sie aus den Fäusten bricht | if she breaks out of my fists |
| legt sich heiss auf das Gesicht | lie hot on your face |
| Sie wird heut Nacht nicht untergehen | she would not go down to night |
| und die Welt zählt laut bis zehn | and the world counts loud to ten |
| eins… hier kommt die Sonne | one… here comes the sun |
| zwei… hier kommt die Sonne | two… here comes the sun |
| drei… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen | three… she’s the brightest star of all |
| vier… hier kommt die Sonne | four… here comes the sun |
| fünf… hier kommt die Sonne | five… here comes the sun |
| sechs… hier kommt die Sonne | six… here comes the sun |
| sieben… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen | seven… she is the brightest star of all |
| acht… hier kommt die Sonne | eight… here comes the sun |
| Die Sonne scheint mir aus den Händen | the sun shines out of my hands |
| kann verbrennen, kann dich blenden | can burn, can blind you |
| Wenn sie aus den Fäusten bricht | when she breaks out of my fists |
| legt sich heiss auf dein Gesicht | lie hot on your face |
| legt sich schmerzend auf die Brust | lays painful on your chest |
| das Gleichgewicht wird zum Verlusst | the balance come to loss |
| läßt dich hard zu Boden gehen | lets you go down hard |
| und die Welt zählt laut bis zehn | and the world counts loud to ten |
| eins… hier kommt die Sonne | one… here comes the sun |
| zwei… hier kommt die Sonne | two… here comes the sun |
| drei… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen | three… she’s the brightest star of all |
| vier… und wird nie vom Himmel fallen | four… and will never fall from heaven |
| fünf… hier kommt die Sonne | five… here comes the sun |
| sechs… hier kommt die Sonne | six… here comes the sun |
| sieben… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen | seven… she is the brightest star of all |
| acht… hier kommt die Sonne | eight… here comes the sun |
And also Metallica’s For Whom the Bell Tolls: Speaks to their anti war stance, and also the origin of that phrase is so… fitting
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Everyone, please remember that it’s ok to have different opinions and share them here. But please, and I stress this, PLEASE don’t turn a discussion into an argument just because other people have different opinions.
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I got one. A few from RWBY. It’s crazy how well RWBY fits the bill for the Mage:
Time To Say Goodbye
“Now it’s time to say goodbye to the things we loved and the innocence of youth. With a doubt in our minds and at times we can’t help wondering were we born to fight and die? Sacrificed for one huge lie? Are we heroes keeping peace? Or are we weapons pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory?”
This Life Is Mine
“There’s a part of me that’s desperate for changes. Tired of being treated like a pawn. But there’s a part of me that stares back from inside the mirror, part of me that’s scared I might be wrong. That I can’t be strong.”
Sacrifice
“Close your eyes now time for dreams. Death is never what it seems. Did the things you thought you should. All the things they said were good. All your faith in ancient ways. Leaves you trapped inside a maze. Take the lives of those you need. Sow the death then reap the seed.”
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The first two of my mage’s songs are aimed straight for Leon and Ante. Warning for foul language, if that offends. But when you see Slayer, you should expect it!
Sick Puppies - You’re Going Down
And her character song (for now):
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