I hadn’t seen the update reducing their rank. They were both SFC before. Your description of roles and responsibilities isn’t wrong but you have to remember that senior folks come from somewhere. Just because a SFC is working at the battalion aid station now doesn’t me he doesn’t remember how to be a field medic. I confess as a Marine officer I likely know less about the service culture of the Army than you do, but I refuse to believe infantry BCs would be completely at a loss leading a squad or leading a mid-sized company for that matter.
This new update also puts the “Commander” as a Staff Sergeant instead of a Lieutenant Colonel. The Infantryman is now a Sergeant, and the Medic is a Specialist.
The 68W’s rank was mostly due to the age, and the relative difficulty of Medics fulfilling the required prerequisites to becoming NCOs, especially since the Army doesn’t like putting people in leadership positions if they don’t actually lead soldiers.
A Commander wouldn’t be at loss commanding a Squad, but they wouldn’t do much better than a civilian, either. They are used to giving orders to skilled people who know how to interpret and carry them out. If they give orders to grunts (or worse, a rag-tag bunch of misfit civilians in an apocalyptic scenario) the same way they do to their Sergeants, they’ll just receive blank stares. If they have skilled people to interpret their orders, translate them into something the grunts can understand, and show the men how to do what they’re asking, then they’ll do just fine.
There’s a reason why Drill Instructors are SNCOs instead of COs, after all…
Well then as @JimD is alluding to there isn’t much difference between a the sergeant rifleman and the staff sergeant squad leader, particularly if they are both 11Bs, other than a few years seniority. I would whole heartedly recommend changing the commander back to an officer if for no other reason than distinction. I think their exact roles in the military are of less importance than their relevant experience. The world has ended after all… I think the idea there is no congruity between military skills and jobs and civilian ones is false and in many ways the leadership of the US armed forces tries to ape civilian corporate organization. I certainly think I would be capable of organizing and leading civilians newly receptive to following directions by the threat of imminent death in something as routine as a combat patrol. They would be sloppy and ill-disciplined, but it would serve. They are likely to listen to someone with professional credentials as well. I’m not going to tell our group’s carpenter how to fix our fence and will do what he tells me when he needs my help.
Have you read my reply 8 posts above this one? I talked about this.
Jim wanted to make three military protagonists: one combat-oriented, one social-oriented, and one support oriented. At first he followed the famous Hollywood formula: give the protagonist the highest rank you can think of, to make the character badass. I pointed out the issues with that mentality in my first post in this topic, and he decided to change it.
I told him repeatedly to buff up the Infantryman, on the base that he was a NCO and not only received combat training, but also leadership training as well, but he decided to keep him under-powered for balance purposes. He seemed to follow my advice on NCOs being more able to lead soldiers, but he wasn’t aware of the fact that Commanders are exclusively COs, so he made him a NCO.
Then I told him that, if he want the Infantryman to be completely combat-oriented without any leadership skills (which he wants to leave to another protagonist), then he should make him a Specialist (highest non-NCO rank). He’d have a few years of experience, but wouldn’t have received leadership training, since he wasn’t a NCO. He’s yet to reply to this suggestion.
Then, for the social-oriented military protagonist, I suggested a SNCO. They’d have lots of experience in leadership and micro-managing people, but also be a little past their prime to be in full combat mode. They’d have to rely on teaching and ordering people around to get the job done, while also being capable of defending themselves, given their military training. They wouldn’t be able to single-handedly take care of an entire horde like an Infantryman, but they wouldn’t need to, since they’d have the necessary leadership to command other survivors into battle, and take care of situations as a team.
Then I also suggested him to add another military protagonist, an intelligent but not-so-sociable CO. They’d know full well what to do, and could handle themselves in a fight if the need ever arise, but their strength would be to come up with plans and tell people what needs to be done. A SNCO would be able to make others do whatever they wanted, but the CO would be able to tell the SNCO what they need to do, since they wouldn’t be able to “see the bigger picture” for themselves.
Well, I can use my combat knife to chop vegetables and make dinner, but why would I if I have a proper kitchen knife? Of course Commanders would be able to lead people somewhat successfully, any authority figure (be it a cop, doctor, or even a security guard) would be able to get panicking civilians’ support if they seemed to know what they’re doing, but why make him go to the front-lines to get killed if he can stay back at base where he belongs and let the SNCO handle the situation he’s meant to handle?
Yes I have read your posts and I honestly found them a bit hard to follow and incorrect, which is why I felt compled to comment. The way I understand your argument is that because a doctor is now a hospital administrator he is now not capable of serving as a doctor in a survival situation. I think that logic is flawed. You can continue to disagree with my assertion, but I point it out nonetheless so that the author can make an informed decision on how to proceed with the game. I would much rather have a LtCol with years of leadership experience under his belt leading my group of survivors under the auspices of the “military leader” archetype rather than a squad leader. If he is an infantry officer I would expect him to be familiar with leading infantry operations at all levels battalion and below. He probably won’t be quite the spring chicken of a 25-27 year old staff sergeant but his vast experience would count for quite a bit.
COs command, they don’t lead, so it’s impossible for a LtCol to have “years of leadership experience under his belt”. Of course they have experience at the battalion and lower levels, right up until the platoon level. They never led a Squad (unless they were Special Forces), so they’re not going to do as much of a good job as a proper Squad Leader would. Unless you’re planning in gathering +30 combat-capable survivors (with a few competent leaders as well) to form your own army against the zombies, I don’t see why a CO would be preferable to lead a survivor group instead of a NCO or SNCO.
The only time I saw a CO leave the office and end up in the middle of the battlefield was when they ambushed his convoy, and he had to fight to make it out alive. He didn’t. So please educate me on how can a LtCol have gathered a “vast experience” on the field, unless you count managing and pen-pushing experience as equivalent or superior to field and hands-on experience. A CO may know when it’s time to send in the tanks, but it doesn’t mean he knows how a tank actually works.
If you think that way, then you certainly did not understand my argument. I never said that going from a position to the other negates the experience you gathered previously. Jim wants the social-oriented military protagonist to be good at leading people, be average at combat, and be in his 30s. The best I could think of would be a First Sergeant. They had enough training to handle themselves in the field but aren’t young enough to use it at full potential, have more than enough experience to lead people, and are in their mid-to-late 30s.
The U.S. Army doesn’t like to give leadership positions to people who don’t actually lead anyone, so it would be harder for a 68W to become a NCO, and they’d be a little too old for the setting by the time they became a SNCO. I said it would be perfectly fine to leave the Medic as a Sergeant First Class, and even suggested giving the protagonist an option to share their thoughts on getting out of the field and being put in a back-at-base position.
I don’t know enough about the minutiae of the US Army to dispute your claims but if they are true I am deeply concerned for its future.
So Madison is a love interest right? I mostly have been playing as teenager
Seems to be. I’m more wondering about Kelly, that is if she becomes a main npc, she’s pretty gutsy.
@JimD
I found this spelling mistake in the prologue when I selected my dates profile.
“which allows you and your match to meet up for a free dinner and a meal,”
Free dinner and a movie.
I found this error in chapter 1 when the zombie attacks. I selected “I’ll sneak around the house and deal with him out in the open.”
Delete the second sentence.
His head snaps backward.
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@JimD
I found an error in chapter 2 when Dante was being chased by the Zombies. I chose “Use my car to run down the zombies”. Then “Rob the man. He’s already injured, and I can make use of his items.” I received his pistol, but it is written as a Glock 19 in the inventory, and a Glock 17 when I selected my weapons.
I found these spelling mistakes in chapter 1 as a teenager at 8:45.
and you know at that moment,
and from the vehicle comes their sergeant.
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WTF, wouldn’t the CO at least have started out as some sort of West-Point or other military academy cadet? As far as I understand it even those cadets lead men on occasion. So even if he entered an office job straight after graduation saying he has zero leadership experience is false. Besides to be able to command effectively in emergency situations you’ve got to be able to lead, otherwise people very likely won’t obey your commands if there’s any alternative available (Carrecourt in Guns, cough).
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“On occasion while at the military academy” differs from “constantly, during at least half their service time, and possibly out in the battlefield under real combat situations” doesn’t it? And I said it would be impossible for them to have years of leadership experience, not any leadership experience.
And that’s why COs always have a handy NCO nearby…
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@JimD
I found this error in chapter 2 when I visited the rancher.
I had bare hands as a primary and a knife as a secondary.
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Uhm.
Lieutenants are on the battlefield quite a bit. A promotion from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st lieutenant is 18 months time in grade. While this usually means Time in Service as well it is very possible for an Noncommissioned Officer to go through Officer Candidate School later on in his service, but for now let’s stick to the freshfaced OCS candidate out of ROTC in college and having his bachelor’s degree. You need 2 years of Time In Grade to be a Captain, which is the rank where I’d generally agree that they do not see the field or get their hands dirty nearly as often. 18 months + 24 months = 42 months of being a CO that can, depending on MOS, be spending a LOT of time on the field.
It is extremely possible for a CO to have years of leadership experience. Now, obviously an 11B Lt will see a lot more shit than a 35F will - so it’s super duper dependent on MOS. But to say it is impossible is downright wrong.
EDIT: The time for promotions are not set in stone and you can be promoted more quickly, and there are a ton of MOSes where you won’t have any different tasks than like a supervisor at a normal company basically once getting out of OCS, but yeah. Saying it is impossible is stretching it super far. The only argument I can see against it is that LTs get ‘handheld’ through their time on the field by an NCO and therefore it doesn’t count as ‘leadership experience’, which is I am sure correct in some cases but to generalize it that way is malarkey.
I don’t know about your Lieutenants, but the ones I saw stayed back in make-shift bases (which were indeed very forward into the field, but nowhere near the actual action), just telling the NCOs to go outside with the soldiers and actually get the job done. The only time I’ve seen a CO in the middle of the action was when the enemy ambushed a convoy that was transporting a unit from their old base to the one that had just been set up. The officer, as well as one fourth of the unit, didn’t make it.
Spending a lot of time in the field is very different from actually doing something in the field. I’ve seen entire units get deployed, spend months stationed inside the same base, and get sent back home without ever actually setting foot outside or firing a shot.
Unless you’re on the field together with (at least) half a dozen soldiers, actively giving orders to them while getting shot at by the enemy, then it isn’t leadership experience; at least not the way I see it. Sure, you went to the field, heard a few explosions, might even have saw a projectile or two being fired nearby, but if you were inside your base waiting for the NCOs under your command to return from combat, then you didn’t learn anything about leadership. Unless you’re talking about these WWII-esque situations where entire Divisions clashed against each other, and even Colonels had to draw their guns and fire at the enemy to keep themselves alive, of course.
I finally had a chance to speak to a good friend from childhood who I haven’t kept in touch with (the holidays reunite) who was an Army engineer and 1st Lieutenant in the 1990s until medically discharged.
He agreed that COs are mostly managers not front-line leaders. However, explaining to him the purpose of 3 soldier backgrounds, he also agreed that an infantry soldier and sergeant would be too similar a skill set (aside from leadership level) to make enough of a distinction. Instead he thought the original Captain idea was best. Though COs don’t lead like NCOs do into battle, for the purposes of ZE:Safe Haven, this captain could have experience in infantry with small unit tactics training and be capable of the type of leadership for this game.
Going to 4 different soldiers (3 NCOs and a CO) would be too much at this point.
I basically beefed up everyone by giving 5 extra skill points which for balance is the most I’d like to do. If there are other changes you suggest, let me know.
Infantry soldiers now have 1 level in leadership and they are going to be very distinct from Military Commanders now.
My friend suggested this social-oriented protagonist be aligned more toward overall team management not battle leading (kind of like TWD’s Governor).
Ultimately, I want all professions to be realistic but I’m sure an ER doctor, police officer, and hacker would find fault in something I write, but hopefully I capture enough of their backgrounds to immerse the reader.
@weirguider to answer your question…
Yes, only for teens.
@Nathan_Faxon you’ll see more of Kelly.
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Woo! She seems my kind of survivor. Got guts, leadership and of course badass tattoos 
Makes it interesting to find out what flaws she’ll have.
I have gotten into a habit of making these one-shot side characters who now seem too interesting to throw away, so I’ve worked on back stories for several. Of course, they may not return based on their own status. For example, Dante may not have survived his first appearance 
So bringing out the recurring NPCs I see? I’m surprisingly okay with Dante not surviving, the wound on his stomach could either be a bite or something that needed medical attention, so I accepted early that he wouldn’t make it. Plus he didn’t accept my help, from previous games those who don’t accept my help don’t survive long 
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