Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven -- Final Beta Closed

multi-part
gender-choice

#6745

Oh god, that scene in Land of The Dead, you saw that too? With the belly piercing? Gives me chills.


#6746

That’s not my point at all. There are lots of characters you can kill. I’m talking about players seem to react to the game. In the poll @The_Division made a while back Tommy was in fifth place and Rosie was in tenth. I’ve seen a lot more examples of players killing off Rosie than Tommy. I’m just saying that Tommy is a lot more popular than Rosie, to the point where it has a noticable affect on her survivability.


#6747

I’m pretty sure that’s more to do with the fact that, uh, y’know, Rosie tries to shoot you 'til you’re dead rather than her actual likeability… Meanwhile, Tommy’s just a chill dude who asks you to help him save his mum…


#6748

Within Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven, the characters are really developed deeply without any romance or relationship aspects considered.

This is a major difference between ZE and ZE:SH … and this complexity overflows into the relationship aspects of the game. There is a particular sequence of events that occur involving Rosie that you only see as a hacker/computer genius that has forever more tainted my view of her. This my failing as a human being to hold this against her but it is what it is.

This doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the depth at which @JimD has developed Rosie - she is a character that makes mental illness more normative to be exposed to. As an author, I know he has put a lot of time and effort into making this character more then just a stereotype or a trope.

The character’s sexual preferences really have nothing to do with my appreciation of Rosie as a character because of the great development. Yet, because of that development, after I found this stuff about her as the hacker, my tolerance for her in the game is actually less then it would otherwise be.

Part of this community’s problem is they are mixing actual character development with romantic development. Conflating these together is what causes the conflict I see here and is really magnified with Tommy and Rosie because they are underrepresented characters in the general media.

It is really beneficial to @JimD if we, the fans of his, can keep these things separated. It really is more harmful and destructive to keep proceeding the way we are. This is @JimD’s thread so I can’t start coming down hard on people who keep conflating these elements together (unless he wants this) but it really would help him if we all stopped doing this.


#6749
Spoilers

Hey I might be completely wrong here, but when you hack into surveillance (or that thing we do) I swear we see her in a better light (as in, almost killing Dillan)

I realise she probably could’ve actually shot him and saved us all a lot of time, but for someone with a mental illness who is basically a ‘follower’ of Dillan, the mere fact she tried shows there’s at least at bit of good in her, right?
And on

[spoiler] I think that’s correct, and there’s also the fact that no one in the group really opposes Tommy, whereas a few people (JILLIAN! ) seem to be a bit miffed with her presence in the group.

While I like her, I can see that it’ll require almost impossible to get stats (:wink:) to balance Jillian and Rosie’s (and maybe Driver’s too) happiness/ not-killing-each-otehr-and-me.

Also, there are way more (reasonable) opportunities to kill Rosie, one where she is a great to you and the other where you might feel she could undermine / cause tension in the group (although, you could jut ands her to leave.


#6750

Please put stuff in spoilers if what you say is plot revealing. As to:

she fails to stop a rape. Perhaps that is forgivable for you, given her illness or perhaps because she is a “follower” but as I said, this is a failing of my own as a human being and that is something I can not forgive.

As I said above, this doesn’t mean I can not appreciate Jim’s development of her as a character but it does preclude me from accepting her as a possible romance for any of my Player characters.

In some of my runs, I bring her along - she can shoot after all and in some of my runs, I let her fall into the zombie pit under the stage because I do want to see Jim develop this character further.


#6751

Ah yeah sure, sorry the spoiler tags are being a bit weird on my phone.

And I see what you mean, it’s mainly that in most normal playthrougha (with normal/ no status bonuses) my guy is like me!

(Which sucks for him :grin: )

Slightly Spoilery

But it also means that generally I save her, because she does need to pay for her actions, but perhaps when she fully realises what she’s actually done wrong (as in, I wouldn’t put it past her to be faking a lot of the apologies to avoid Dylan’s fate)


#6752

I’m not saying Rosie is unlikable. I personally like her. I personally was pulling for her to be a recurring character and possibly a romantic option before she ever had any character development beyond being a bandit who pleaded for her life. I’m saying that a lot of other people clearly don’t agree with me and so if she’s a lesbian specifically for the purposes of adding an equal number of characters of certain orientations then she seems like a counter-intuitive choice.


#6753

I wasn’t arguing against or in favour of any of those points. I just said that I believe, and I’m quite sure I’m not the only one, that the main reason she has a much lower survival rate than Tommy and that she’s not that liked, is more to do with the fact that she actually tries to kill you. Like, right until she finds herself at your mercy.

And in the meantime, Tommy’s a guy who’s your neighbour and begs for your help to save his mum.

You can hardly blame people for killing Rosie…


Also, I feel like I should note: I’m one of those who are actually interested in Rosie’s romance. One of my character builds was actually made specifically for that.


#6754

I can blame people for killing her insofar as it makes any sense to blame anyone for killing anyone in a video game, but that’s also beside the point. :stuck_out_tongue: The main reason she is an interesting character to me in the first place is because she’s trying to murder you all the way up until she’s at your mercy and you have to option to actually save her life. I was really interested in seeing the repercussions of that and how a character like that (who at the time we didn’t know had even as good of an excuse as being a mental patient being manipulated by her caretaker and for all we knew had just made these bad choices without much coercion) could potentially be redeemed. None of that really matters to people who don’t find her interesting enough to allow her to continue living though, because they won’t see it. That’s their choice though. All of that comes back around to the fact that she is apparently the only lesbian RO in the game for the sake of representation, which as I’ve previously explained is kind of counter-productive.


#6755

Mmm… No?

Her sexuality doesn’t/won’t make her more prone to be disliked by the fans; what is @Ylva saying is that the fact that she very much tries to murder the MC, along with two teens (and possibly the eight year old nephew) is what makes her survival rate much lower than Tommy’s. He isn’t loved by everyone either (because people dislike his desire for revenge/whatever else), but naturally, he doesn’t present the same threat as Rosie. Mind you, if he had used his mother as a ruse to lure the MC into his house and try to off them there, he would be as disliked as Rosie, but that isn’t the case.

Heck, we can’t even compare Rosie to Driver (since some time ago in a poll readers showed to be more willing to spare him rather that her), because their encounters are vastly different. Driver is not nearly as hostile as Rosie, you can talk with him/trick him/avoid him, and he even does try to save the MC from zombies (urging them to go inside the High School while he takes care of them), which gets him a lot of positive points in the players’ eyes. While Rosie… Well, you know how it goes. She shots Madison and is ready to off everyone, and only changes tactics when she’s about to die, using an excuse that’s not really liked (some people here mentioned that her apology was cheap and not enough for them to consider saving her).

That’s to say, while she isn’t completely irredeemable (I guess? I believe that she does have the potential to become a better version of the one she is right now, like the rest of the cast), it’s to be expected that not a lot of people have the desire to save her. Would you really want to have someone like her around, when you’re already fighting for your life in a zombie-infested world? Of course, hacking the cameras gives you a different insight of her character, but it shows that even when she claimed she adored Dillan like a god, going as far as being willing to kill for him, she wasn’t exactly very loyal to him ( trying to shot him while his back was turned ).

Like… usually, when a character tries to murder your MC, you don’t go “oh! Such interesting NPC! I would love to befriend/romance them!!!” No, you try to get rid of them in order to survive. Only someone with a big heart (and very forgiving) or ulterior motives would save her, when chances are that if the roles were reversed, she would drop you to the zees in a heartbeat and no remorse. What you find interesting (her begging for her life after very much trying to murder you and several kids) is jarring for others, it makes them angry, plus the excuses she uses.

So what I am saying is that her sexuality doesn’t matter at all; it won’t have any kind of effect on how good/terrible of a human being she is. Fans don’t hate her for being a lesbian (so the representation issue is moot), it has no importance; it’s meaningless to point it out because a lot of the players don’t even know it (since she only gives a hint of her orientation after saving her). It won’t be counter-productive to make her a lesbian any less than the fact that she’s a woman (and no one is saying: why is a woman one of the villains!!!) Same with her mental health; we only know about it after the decision is made, when we get to Jaime, so it doesn’t influence our choice of saving her/dropping her at all.

She wouldn’t be the only lesbian character either, Billie (the farm girl) is one too (and surely in Part 2, with new NPCs and such, more will appear). And, as hard to believe it as it is (here I’m being a tad sarcastic, since some people believe that characters who aren’t white, cis and straight are only tokens :roll_eyes:), @JimD maybe didn’t make her a lesbian to “even the numbers,” maybe she just came out like that when he designer her. It’s true that in the past, the media and such portrayed homosexual characters as the evil ones/deviants, but nowadays, anyone has equal chances of being with the bad/good guys, because your orientation has no effect on whether you’re a decent human being/the worst thing that has ever stepped on Earth.

So what I meant to explain with such a long post is that representation has nothing to do with her position as a villain. As things are, she’s not even a RO (Jim gave a list of ROs not long ago, there were 12 and Rosie wasn’t one of them).

And well, as I mentioned before, it shouldn’t cause so much stir that one of the antagonist happens to be something else than straight, as sexuality has absolutely no effect on how good/bad you are. Yes, there have been issues in mainstream media, but this isn’t a mainstream game; CoG and HG have been shown to be fairly progressive for years, and Jim does a good job with representation without anyone prompting him to do so, so it’s only natural that there’s plenty of variety with the good guys and the baddies.

There would be a problem (of representation) if all of the villains were lesbians, or all the lesbians that appeared were evil (as for Part 1, we have Billie and Rosie, or as things are coded, if you play as a lesbian MC, Rachel, Kelly, Madison and Julianne can be interpreted as such in said playthrough!) but that’s not the case.

P.S: I don’t hate Rosie nor I love her, I just try to be impartial regarding people’s opinions and why they like/dislike her.


#6756

I think @Shoelip didn’t mean it that way (as in either (1) Rosie is dislike due to being lesbian or (2) that making bad people LGBT is bad.)

It’s my reasoning that the message they intended to convey pertained more to the issue of representation.
(Maybe both bold and italics was too much, but oh well haha)

Were there only 1 straight or female character, and then it was made so that they can be killed off (and in my opinion, it seems to be more rational to simply kill Rosie as of now) rather easily, many would complain, especially if they played the entire game and realised they killed the only person they could/ wanted to romance.
What I (and I assume Shoelip) am trying to say is that it’s not helpful to include only one character of a minority / orientation for representation, and allow it so they can (and most players are rationally encouraged to) kill them off, early on.
This greatly diminishes the representation (and choice, I might add, for actual lesbians, or anyone who wants to romance another girl as a girl) in the game, and I’m pretty sure that’s a bad thing.

I liken it to including a token black guy in horror films, only for them to die uh… very early.

Of course, this is not meant as a criticism of the romantic choices offered in the game by our God @JimD (especially since romance and character development is more likely to happen later in the end of the world)


#6762

#6763

This topic was automatically opened after 17 hours.


#6764

Heh, yeah, I was about to say this also, which makes a certain amount of sense given that you just linked to me :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

My big point also was that the fact these numbers are going up so fast means that it’s very unclear where the trend would actually stop, and what the demographics would end up looking like in a theoretical homophobia- and heteronormativity-free society.

I expect it would still be heterosexuality-skewed, but there may be a lot more people with Woody-like orientations than they think :innocent:

So I suppose the ZE:SH characters could just be a bit more self-aware than the average :grin:


#6765

I have to say in a zombie apocalypse i’d be way more worried about zombies than the sexualities of my assembled comrades.


#6766

Now we need a group consisting entirely of LGBT roller derby players zooming on by in their skates, beating up zombies. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: I’d want them by my side.


#6767

The big difference is that we’re not actually having this conversation in a zombie apocalypse. If I were actually in a zombie apocalypse, then oh yeah, that would be what’s on my mind. However, we are talking about a story that takes place in a zombie apocalypse, so we can be interested in issues that wouldn’t be really relevant on the ground. Much like how, if I were in a zombie apocalypse I would not be concerned with whether or not my companions are well-characterized, or whether the narration is easy to follow :grin:


#6768

Where can i find the release dates for upcoming parts?


#6769

Normally you can check Jim’s Facebook page or his twitter but recently, the expected release date for Part 2 was pushed back for unknown reasons - supposed to find out more info later on. This is the latest said here: