@Chrysoula I am making a deliberate effort to avoid weighing in on this discussion, but in passing, I’m going to return the favour from earlier and ask a simple question, out of pure curiosity: You’ve mentioned devaluing femininity a few times, now, as being a bad thing. Do you think, then, that Ideals of masculinity and femininity ought to be preserved, rather than de-valued? And what grounds these Ideals?
In short, I think the value should be equalized and decoupled from sex and sexuality. Even among a lot of self-described feminists, traditionally masculine traits are overvalued and traditionally feminine traits are undervalued. This is changing in recent years, but you’ll still encounter plenty of women who are scornful of heroines who cry, the color pink, and pretty dresses. These things are not intrinsically bad, they’re only bad when women’s choices are restricted to that limited set.
And thank you, @Drazen, for your restraint, because I know you and I are on pretty far ends of this discussion spectrum and we’re not going to get anywhere by arguing. 
@Chrysoula The last time I got into this sort of conversation it was with a gal who hated romance novels. I mistakenly assumed you did as well given your wording, and that’s why I used a rather flippant tone when speaking of women who enjoy them, and drew a connection that I should have known better than to make. I apologize for that. I’ve also removed the last two sentences from my earlier post.
Furthermore, you made an interesting distinction between the two definitions. I don’t think all pick-up artist “alpha’s” put women down however, but there is certainly a “school of thought” among them that vocally advocates this behavior. Basically the logic goes that if she’s feeling like she isn’t good enough then she won’t be as picky or critical as she would otherwise, making success more likely. Personally I think that this technique is far more likely to backfire than succeed unless the PUA is so smooth the woman doesn’t realize he’s just insulted her. There are also women who treat their husbands this way, continually belittling them to the point where the men either become permanent door mats or leave. Nevertheless the women that behave this way usually don’t do it to establish new relationships so much as they do to dominate and control an existing one. In either case, when someone treats you this way, it’s time to leave. That sort of relationship just isn’t healthy for anyone.
@Chrysoula One further note, your response to @Drazen was very well said. I do have a small issue with the decoupling part, but other than that I’m in complete agreement.
The decoupling is an ideal. I’d settle for a world where little girls and little boys can both play with long-haired dolls and pink ponies and trucks and science kits without any kind of judgement at all except “they’re children”-- and where their parents feel comfortable giving those toys to them.
Additionally, just read this and thought some people might find it interesting.
@Chrysoula A very agreeable position, indeed. I’m rather sympathetic to such… conservative libertarian positions.
@Chrysoula I absolutely loved that blog post. It touched up every point I had been trying to make within this thread, but the poster accomplished it in a vastly more eloquent and articulate way that I had been (and the fact I’m a clumsy writer didn’t help my cause). But, wow, what an excellent read.
@Drazen As someone who is a registered voting Libertarian for the past 14 years now, I’m not sure how what Chrysoula said in that post can be seen as a “conservative libertarian” position. I’m honestly not certain what to make of that or where it came from. XD
@Apillis It struck me as valuing individual autonomy, whilst also recognising the value of such Ideals, to a degree. If my terming was sloppy, then I suppose my answer is: Meh.
Hatshepsut has been a Pharaoh for all that the name could hold. And from what I’ve heard some historians say, she may not have been the sole Pharaoh to have been female, though she was the only one they have found written trace of.
It doesn’t change the fact that her ascension to the throne have been very difficult, her tomb is said to have been sacked, and her name, to have been erased from every thing possible, because of her gender, as soon as the next male Pharaoh obtained the throne.
But she is said to have ruled for long, and it still has happened. SI it’s possible to make a female MC a Pharaoh without breaking from history accuracy too much.
xD Yes I know. I tend to write them for reference purpose and in hoping that a some new member arriving after me may want to continue discussing this since the topic is very interesting.
I began participating the forum very recently and didn’t know whether necroposts were forbidden or not… I guess that in doubt I should have refrained from posting… If I should remove the post, let me know, please?
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Nothing wrong with posting on non-WiP old threads. Doc, you’ve been around long enough to know that. Don’t meme-scorn people for doing something we encourage.
Yes, my apologies. It was late at night, and the meme fit, so I posted it.
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I can understand. 
Thanks for clarifying.
Relocating so as to not be off-topic on Choice of Pirates thread…
I haven’t played either CoP or the new Heroes series. That said, @Zolataya, even if I ended up agreeing that Zach Sergi’s latest was heavy-handed in its treatment of social justice issues, I don’t think I’d agree that the solution would be for him to write a world where gender discrimination does not in effect exist. That’s too far from the themes he wants to address.
Plenty of games could usefully follow CoPirate’s example; I’m just not sure that the Heroes series is among them. There’s a place for escapism (which, as you say, is helpful in normalizing different gender identities)… and there’s a place for stories about fighting oppression.
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My commentary is controversial it seems. I am sorry.
I never tried to suggest that he should not write of a world where discrimination does not exist. Discrimination can and if written as such, should exist in a world where the entire gender identity spectrum is accepted as normal and “part of the natural order of things” and fighting oppression can take place in these worlds too.
My opinion in relation to the Hero series is that Mr. Segi’s latest work went beyond the pale from exploration, exposition and explaining and into the realm of imposition and suffocating. I have read and purchased all of his prior works and there has always been an angle of exploration, exposition and explaining to them but in the latest work, the characters were taken to a static extreme to be held forth as tools that bludgeoned.
As an example I agree with, @Sashira explained how she found that character from SF to be so tied to stereotype and negativity that any good done by including that character in the story was outweighed by the damage. Even a member of our community stated this character fit their perceived stereotypical perception so well that the character was dismissed out of hand.
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Goodness, I don’t think “Haven disagrees” is the same thing as “controversial.” And if you feel the need to apologize for writing something I disagree with, I’ll just need to say sorry too. 
In particular, apologies if “gender discrimination does not in effect exist” was an over-simplification on my part. My point is that even if Zach’s latest entry is as bludgeon-wielding as people complain, and stumbled into stereotypes… I don’t think the solution is for him to write a world where characters of any gender identity are considered normal, part of the natural order of things, and belong in mainstream society. That’s just not the Heroes Rise world.
Yes, many kinds of discrimination can be written in those worlds. But Zach wants to write stories that deal with the kinds of discrimination that people with many gender identities face in our world – where they’re not accepted as normal, natural, etc. – and as we all know already from X-Men, superpowers can work well as a metaphor for those kinds of discrimination.
If he’s written the metaphors too heavy-handedly, or if some of the specific aspects he’s used have unfortunate (and stereotype-reinforcing) connotations, I don’t think the fix is abandoning the central conflict of his gameworld. The fix is to write that conflict better.
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The Hero Rise world is not the Hero Project world either and that lies at the heart of the issue. In the first series there was never any questions as to gender identity; the norm was already established. The Hero Project world is a retcon world. Not only for Jury and the anti-hero girl turned holo and the first lady but in the sense of gender as well.
Yet, he doesn’t do this. The characters in his story change their identity more than some change their underwear in our world. Not just the MC but other main characters that you are, as a reader, supposed to form some types of bonds with.
This character from SF (I can’t recall the name ) changes from one monster to the next; all of which draw on central discriminatory tropes of the past 50 years in Americana film and art and this just reinforces that no matter the change, this individual is a monster of one type or another that reinforces what people have known for decades.
This is not exploration of a discriminated population, this is reinforcing that the population is adhering to stereotypical beliefs … the super-powers are being used as a metaphor for those beliefs and that is an issue.
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I agree. I think they are both equally important, and we need both. I think it’s great that Choice of Games provides a platform to tell both types of stories. That people can write those stories that matter to them. It doesn’t need to be an either/or.
Choice of Rebels does a great job of being a story that’s about oppression and discrimination, and fighting against it.
@Zolataya Do you have any suggestions for games that tackle discrimination/oppression themes in a manner that you do like? Or a way that you’d improve things?
What sort of story, that’s based upon oppression and discrimination, would interest you?
I think they’re themes that are tied into the whole being a super-hero. The X-Men in particular, but there’s so many other examples of Heroes who’re forced to hide who and what they are, least they be discriminated against.
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There are really two streams of discussion here so, if it is o.k., I will split them so I can address them better.
There are so many that I can list 100’s of titles. To be more productive, there are some general rules an author should adhere to in order to be successful.
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The world built should be a world I can believe in at best and suspend disbelief at worse. Batman’s Gotham City is an example where my ability to believe in it or suspend disbelief in it breaks down. The Marvel Universe is a world where I can (so far) suspend my disbelief. I have yet to find a “super-hero” world I can believe in. The closest that I ever got was the 1960’s comic book Wolverine. Ironically, the modern Wolverine damaged that and has sullied the original in my eyes.
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The story should challenge my held beliefs, assumptions, perceptions, or other “thing” that helps form my world-view. I am a student of History, the force in this world that challenges every fiber of my body, I love to learn and I have no issues with being told I am wrong. Even pure “escapism” can challenge something of the above. Changing Thor from a male to a female does nothing of the above. Changing Thor from a Norse male mythology to a Buddhist female mythology might. Again, 99% of “super-hero” stories fail for me.
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In challenging my “whatever” the story should be provocative enough to encourage confronting that “whatever” but not over-provocative to the point where the author rail-roads me as a reader to only his or her view. Brain-washing a person only works for cultists - not story-writers.
I do better at individual feedback for particular stories. My feedback to Sergi would have been (pre-release) set this story in another story-verse - the story as written and presented does not fit the pre-built Hero Rise world. He has the ability to create multiple storyverses. His Versus story is one such example that is similar to but separated from Hero’s Rise.
Post Release Feedback would be: Re-establish the norms set in the Hero Rise series; challenges to beliefs, to perception and to bias can still be made in the Hero Rise world without retconning it to the point where he is giving Blizzard a run for their money. The difference between a Blizzard MMO/RPG game and a CoG game is that the CoG game’s story is central to the success of that game and the mechanics are secondary. Blizzard can get away with what they do to their world because the primary importance of that game is the mechanic. Story is secondary to its success.
@Havenstone succeeds in all three of the above stated “rules” to adhere to - even if I do not enjoy every character the same he does or see he elements of the storyverse in his “cannon” way. The difference is, even where there is disagreement, there still is a twain to meet at.
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