I know, and it won’t even be mentioned inside the story. Instead, there’ll be one huge bulk of a book listing history, geography, culture, etc. inside that world that won’t even be mentioned in my story. Kind of like how they have books and wikis about the ASOIAF that gives information that hasn’t been mentioned or explained in the books or TV show.
Also, I’m kind of afraid that I’ll be called out for whitewashing POC characters when that’s really not the case.
Lol I know the Simpsons. My parents used to watch it all the time. But that’s one of the many reasons I think it’s weird to call Asians ‘yellow.’ It definitely isn’t used as much as ‘black’ and ‘white’ and a lot of the time, it is used as a racist undertone (though I have seen Asian activists on the internet try and reclaim this word).
In fact (and I’ve thought about this for a while) I might not even use different words for the races of the people. I might just refer to them by the country, tribe, ethnic group, etc. they hail from. And if they have mixed lineage, I’ll just say that they are X and Y.
I’d also liked to say thanks to @P_Tigras for giving so much info on how genetics works so it can work in my story.
Also @Sashira the people in the pictures have such pretty eyes, holy cow. I’m jealous.
There is a village in the Gusan province in northern China called Liqian where blue and green eyes are common. Blonde hair isn’t unheard of either.
It isn’t the only place. I did a quick google search. Turns out there have been people from Mongolia, Korea, and elsewhere with light hair and eyes. Given the thousands of years of cultural contact and exchange throughout Europe and Asia, some recessive phenotypes are going to show up once in a while. I think this kid is from Xinjiang.
I wouldn’t worry too much about whitewashing, and I don’t see why your story can’t take place in a real-world location if you want it to. In a sense, every fiction story takes place in an alternate reality. If you think mentioning blue eyes will suggest that your characters are white, you can use names or other cultural trappings to mark them otherwise.
Octavia Butler used another strategy in “Bloodchild,” which takes place in a colony in the distant future: she mentioned one character’s skin tone once, during an unsettling scene in which the reader is not thinking about skin tone.
There was movement on the right side—tiny, seemingly random pulsations moving his brown flesh, creating a concavity here, a convexity there, over and over until I could see the rhythm of it and knew where the next pulse would be.
Suddenly no one in the story is white. One mention is usually enough. It helps if that mention comes at a point where the protagonist is hyperfocused on visual details.
You could also do what Neil Gaiman did in Anansi Boys, and mark the ethnicity of characters who aren’t the same race as the protagonist (but only once per character, and only when the character is introduced) without mentioning the protagonist’s race at all. Since the main characters were sons of an Afro-Caribbean god, their own ethnicity literally went without saying.
Jeez I haven’t responded to this topic in a while. Sorry everyone! Thanks for all of the advice you’ve given me, it is greatly appreciated.
I’ve decided finally that the world will be primarily monoracial, with some mixed people depending on region. However, there will still be monoracial people who have “white features” such as colored hair and light eyes. And that will be it. Facial structure of different races will look the same as with any other race, they will just have more diverse hair and eye colors.I mean, you guys are right in that it’s a fantasy world and I’ve begun to embrace that concept.
Also, since this thread has been a bit inactive, let’s open up with a question!
What do you guys think of races in the fantasy genre? Should elves and dwarves be considered races or as different species? In some media, different fantasy races are biologically incompatible and therefore cannot reproduce children together. What are your thoughts on that, since races here on Earth can obviously co-create.
This is dependent on what ethos your world is built on. The Irish mythology dictates one set of reproductive rules, the D&D mythology dictates another. In D&D, you have half-(__) but if your world follows the Irish rules, then with the exception of a couple rare cases then there are only pure-breeds.
In my worlds, I always treat “elves”, etc as a cultural difference and the ability to have unions between cultures possible but perhaps limited due to other reasons such as religious beliefs or family tradition.
Personally, I treat Elves/Dwarves/Orcs/etc. as separate species. They have their own races within their species.
I hate to say it, but sort of like how a dog has a breed? If we’re going to separate humans by “race” despite all being more or less exactly the same, genetically, then why not other species? All we’re really doing is separating ourselves by breed like animals…
All species have their distinguishing characteristics, y’know?
Like in Tolkien’s Middle Earth, the Elves from Mirkwood are extremely different in appearance from the Elves of Rivendell. Rivendell Elves have darker complexions, darker eyes, and hair, whereas Mirkwood Elves are very light-haired and -skinned (though in his books, it’s actually the opposite, I’m going by currently accepted lore, a la the movies and LOTRO).
EDIT: this is because I prefer a more traditional High Fantasy setting.
Different species can’t breed together while different races can breed together. A great Dane and yorki may look different, but they can still breed together and produce offspring that are capable of breeding. A dog breed is more like a social class than a race.
Look at "White " people. That category can be separated into French, Brittish, Irish, Russian, German, and many others. This distinction based on origin (and somewhat on features) was more important in the past, but after colonization and the growing presence of people of color, the distinction between the different types of white people became less necessary (Jim Crow Laws, white only vs. “Colored” only signs, etc.).
People can be separated by social class such as poor, rich, or middle class. People can be separated by religion. It is even possible for people of one race to be racist/prejudice against their own race (lighter skin vs. darker skin). All people who are black don’t have the exact same skin color or features and that’s the same with other races.
I feel like with more cultural diversity and an easier way to spot the “outsiders” that are significantly different, there’s probably going to be a loosining of the restrictions on race. So there would be one human race (but, with different skin colors and features) and one orc race, and so on, because people not of that “race” can’t tell the difference. It’s like the “Japanese” internment camps in America where the Asians were held because no one knew the difference between Japanese, Chinese, Laotion, etc. They were all just Asian.
Back on topic, I think fantasy races should just be races.
That’s…exactly what I said. A dog breed would be the difference between, say, Mirkwood Elves and Rivendell Elves, or between Japanese people and Korean people.
A different species means they can’t mate. Have you ever heard of a Goblin-Orc hybrid? No? Because they’re different species, not races.
Hence, TRADITIONAL High Fantasy “races” are different species that can sometimes interbreed (EG: a horse and a donkey, a lion and a tiger, etc.), but for the most part cannot.
True, but in colloquial language, most people think of species as being a different genus, if the same family.
At least, that’s what I was taught in the only biology class I ever took (9th grade Biology 101 wooo), so I could be very, very, extremely incorrect in that statement LOL
If two different types of animals are not interfertile, then they are definitely different species. If two different types of animals are interfertile however, they may or may not be the same species. For example, wolves and coyotes are considered different species, but are capable of mating and producing fertile offspring. The fact that the two animal populations remain physically distinct despite occasional interbreeding is considered good reason to classify them as different species.
Biology and I really, REALLY do not mix. Physics is easy. Biology is hard. Chemistry is terrifying and should, frankly, not exist >:T (at least not as a requirement for high schoolers, crikey)
Geography and natural habitat do play a role in species determination . In natural settings, some animals like lions and tigers would mostly not come in contact and therefore not have a chance to produce offspring (along with adaptation to new habitat like Darwin’s finches). Not all hybrids are infertile, I believe it depends on chromosomes, but hybrid fertility is often less than non-hybrids, in general.
It would be nice if animals worked in cartoon relationships like The Lion King or The Jungle Book or household dog and cat pet friendships, but natural animal relationships don’t work like that. There are predators and prey and most animals recognize and interact with their own. The show Big Cat Diary shows that Lions and cheetas are too busy competing for food and space to be friendly, but this problem doesn’t exist in zoos.
So what you’re saying is that, realistically, dwarves and elves wouldn’t be able to have babies (in traditional high fantasy). And, if they did, the babies would likely be infertile?
That means they’re not different races, but different species. HAH I WIN THE HIGH FANTASY DEBATE.
my prize is loneliness and a longing for human contact
also whaaat? I’ve always been terrible at science classes except for physics. Math classes, too, for that matter. Always been good at algebra and physics, though. Kinda scary good, actually. Straight A’s in physics, even though I took advanced courses (I’ve avoided science pretty much altogether for my degree LOL)
I’m not a high fantasy expert, but dwarfs and elves could be different species. It’s kind of confusion with all the half human races. But, here’s a crown of knowledge for winning.
hahaha! I shall wear my Crown of Knowledge with pride snerk
(just to be clear, i’m joking around. i don’t actually think i won a debate snort)
But yeah, if you haven’t heard of a Dwelf…Elarf?..then they must be different species. If Traditional High Fantasy species are all races, then they should all be able to interbreed, but they can’t. o3o
One interesting point to consider with different but similar species are “ring species”. For example, here in the UK, we have two species of seagull called the European Herring Gull and the Lesser Black Backed Gull. Now the European Herring Gull can breed with the American Herring Gull, which can breed with the Vega Gull (East Siberia), which can breed with Heuglin’s Gull (West Siberia), which can breed with the Lesser Black Backed Gull, but that can’t breed (or at least, doesn’t) with the European Herring Gull. (To make matters even more confusing, there are about a dozen other species and subspecies that can interbreed with the above, but don’t add to the point.)
Consequently, it’s possible that Dwarves and Elves could be capable of both interbreeding with the same species (e.g. Humans) without interbreeding with one another, without breaking any biological laws.
It of course all depends on how it works for your fantasy setting as far as interbreeding goes.
I’ve written it both ways where the setting was more on serious side and the fantasy races generally couldn’t reproduce with each other, but I’ve also had the settings where things are a bit more flexible on the situation and at least one character is a halfling/ogre combination.
One setting I always liked was Arcanum where some of the scholars suggested that due to humans being able to reproduce with orcs AND elves that somewhere in the past there must have been a common ancestor with the three races. Obviously elves hated this idea. Lol.
for winning.