Villain: The Catalyst [Minor Update and Poll - 09/08/18 - ]

Off-Topic Other Interactive Fiction
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I feel like this needs clarification.
The idea I’m vouching is similar to My Hero Academia in that, the characters never gain any new powers. They technically stay at the same strength. How they grow is in how they use their powers and their creativity with what they already have.
It completely spits in the face of ‘new powers as the plot demands’ because nothing ever comes completely out of nowhere, it’s always the same power. Just used in a way that hadn’t been used before.

For example, take X-Ray guy that we just met. What if, instead of using his power to look through inanimate objects, he turned that power to a person in order to see their internal structure, and find weakpoints that he could exploit. Gaining him the edge in a hand-to-hand fight. It’s the same power, but used in a new way.
In Avatar, when Katara first used Bloodbending, that was an example of this kind of growth. Controlling another person wasn’t a new power that came out of nowhere. It was applying real-world logic to the idea of Controlling Water to Control-The-Water-Inside-A-Person. It was a logical leap that led to a power-up.

It’s a form of character progression that requires the character themselves to actually progress, because they can’t rely on gaining a spontaneous power-up in the heat of the moment.

It’s the contest between ‘gain new powers v.s. learn how to better use your existing ones.’ The former is flashy, has spectacle, but is ultimately hollow because the progress doesn’t reflect the character.
Whereas being given a tool and being told to make it work for the situation they’re in takes more from the character. They have their tools from the beginning, and that’s what they’re goanna get, and they need to make it work. It requires resourcefulness, cleverness, and makes them progress in a way that actual people do.

I highly implore someone of the opposing view to make their counterargument, and for everyone to at the very least read both before you finalize a decision.
(And remember, if you voted too soon, you can change it).

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At first I would like to say that I don’t think any of the ways are bad. And I think @ToxicDreams can pull them both off. But in the interest of counter argument:

Ultimately, it is because game mechanics.

Getting to choose new powers as we ‘evolve’ allow for more customization than any kind of style would ever allow. (within the limit of what the author wants to write of course).

Choosing a style will lock us into that style. Which is fine and easier on the author, but limits the player more. We don’t get new powers as the plot demands in any case, since judging from the demo there are specific points where we learn the power we already know we have the potential of. (They are right there in the stat screen).

The upside would be that it could be easier for the author to write with a more general idea of style, (since as it is now at some point the author will have remember if any given power could be used in any given situation.) Of course putting in too many styles and it is basically the same problem.

I also don’t agree that it shows more character. Our MC already know their potential (dad’s notes.) which parts they choose to explore can show just as much character and character progress. MC can choose to train and develop their powers based on their experience as it is now. My MC might for example start out as stealth focused, but change their view and fighting style to be more aggressive after the events in the ‘school’. Locking us into a style early on might prevent that form of character development since if you pick support, you are locked into support now matter what happens if even it stops fitting your character.

Also this is not my hero academia and blood bending was totally a whole new branch of waterbending rather than a further development of Katara’s power. It had limits, implication and restriction that ordinary water bending didn’t. Sweat bending (which Katara also did.) would be closer to what you propose.

It also completely changes the nature of the MC. This is not a story about being limited and working around/ with natural talent (which is ultimately the story of my hero academia), but the story of someone raised a villain. Changing the nature of our power potential (as this would) changes the nature of the MC. Not necessarily for the worse, but it does change.

Also this is not a classical rpg. Classical rpg classes might not work well.

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But because the powers are so random, only being centered around a vague ‘dark’ theme which allows anything from teleporting to sensing to healing, it says almost nothing about the character themselves.
Customization is about defining a character. But if a character is defined by their powers, then there’s nothing of any real substance to them.

Not necessarily. Practicing a little in one style wouldn’t automatically lock you out of learning from any other style. Just because I learn some Jiu-Jitsu doesn’t mean I can’t also learn some Kickboxing. And no matter how you look at it, training a skill is always going to be more understandable than spontaneously evolving a new, random ability.
As it is now, ‘dark’ can justify about anything. ‘I use darkness to teleport.’ ‘I use darkness to shoot laser beams.’ ‘I use darkness to heal people.’ How does any of that remotely make any sense? More importantly, how is that interesting? If the hero can just do whatever they want with the incredibly vague ‘darkness,’ then they’re just silver age Superman with a blank paint-job.

Indeed, this is something to avoid. And something that ‘new powers’ is not avoiding.
As a player, I can’t keep track of everything ‘darkness’ can do. I can only imagine how hard it is for the writer.

Not true. We don’t know the MC’s potential, because the powers haven’t been properly defined.
And they haven’t been defined, because they keep getting new ones. As it is, I have no idea what ‘darkness’ is even supposed to mean. Is it the absence of light, or is it a force with actual mass, or is a wishing well to pull out any power I want?

That’s what I’m advocating. Stop doing my job.

It wasn’t a new branch. It was a new thought process.
Fans from the start had been thinking “Waterbending controls water + Humans mostly made of water = Waterbenders control humans???” It’s the same power, just used differently. As was sweat bending, as you pointed out.
And that series would have been much less engaging if in a sticky situation, she could suddenly go ‘what if I use the element of water to send messages to everyone who has water in them?!’

I would say it does change it for the better. It shows them as someone who is resourceful, intelligent, and able to attain power by their own abilities rather than because the plot needs them to.
Not only that, it improves the entire world. It makes powers less of an omni-powerful wishing well and more understandable, definable, and impressive. Nobody really cares when a Naruto character pulls out a new, amazing Plot No Jutsu to instantly turn the tables in a fight, usually via giant explosion.
But nothing grabs an audience like seeing a character use previously available knowledge in an intelligent way that they themselves might have even thought of. Explaining the world and how it works will always give the player a deeper connection to it.

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@Interestedparty i can see your point but I don’t think that adding classes is what will work in fact there’s a skill tree already there are capacities that depend from one other like the Darkness Empowerment is an advance move of Dark form where you use darkness as a raw power to boost your physical abilities.
What you seek is more an explanation of what darkness really is but for that we need to know the real power of the MC which is a variation of Darkness Manipulation I think (maybe Esoteric Darkness Manipulation for the healing ability) the power are understandable darkness is like you said the absence of light in whatever form of it, meaning that if there isn’t light in your body or your mind or around you, you can use darkness as raw energy to enhance your physical abilities or as darkness to use it against other or for your own.
And for the secret power up it’s not the plot want it but if you do something with your power you can discover way to use them because you subconsciously trigger it, so a power up at times for an explained reason can be understandable. But I admit that using your power in a out of the box way is not always possible because you can’t predict what everyone would do in a specific situation.
I like when the world is well explained as well and the Villain world seems good up to now and the MC himself doesn’t seemed to know exactly what his power are exactly but for the way they works I search on powerlisting the specific about a power and I search the logical way it would work by putting all the small pieces of explanation together

650

So I picked New Style but that was before I read everything everyone had to say. Now I’m at a loss, I can see both sides of what everyone is saying.

I do agree that the current style is character progress because we the character, is being able to choose them. Toxic isn’t throwing these powers at us like ‘oh well now you get transportation’ we get to choose whether or not where we go and so if we wanted to go with all stealth powers that’s completely do-able. The list on the stat screen is random, yes but I still think it can speak towards our powers. If I do nothing but choose hard hitting, damage dealing powers and healing then I feel like that makes me a tank.

I honestly feel like the new style would change the entire dynamic of all the mutant powers, is that what you’re going for @Interestedparty because that actually sounds like the entire book would need to be looked at again. I don’t know about the x-ray guy cos that’s not in the demo if I remember correctly but the way you worded it makes it seem like you want the powers revamped completely? Or is that just me reading to deeply?

These are actually powers on powerlisting so I actually think they are logical and make some type of sense. And all these powers have respectively fallen under Darkness Manipulation. No disrespect whatsoever but I personally think you’re looking too deep into what darkness means, when it could just mean being able to manipulate the darkness, the opposite of light. Timmi’s power is a great example that ours is just that, seeing that she ‘dark element’ can manipulate the dark and negative elements in the surrounding.

Again, I’m interested in the new style but I also don’t see why you should fix something that’s not broken. We’re questioning about what the new style would do when we can always just ask @ToxicDreams about how she would implement it since, at the end of the day she’s the one who will decide and be the one writing it. From what I see the biggest questions is will we be stuck in a certain style and how would it help with character development that’s starkly different from the old style. Also, are you leaning more towards one?

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Well, since our power is shadow, a ‘terrifying’ or ‘eldritch’ style would be cool, basicaly you terrfiy your opponent / play with their perception until they give up, pass out or go insane (style could also have an ‘upgrade’, like the upgrade for Terrifying would be Eldritch)

and both systeme have pros and cons, the individual power allow a greater choice / freedom but they also runs the risk of the player getting disadvantaged for picking a less usefull power (no matter how much you work, there will always be a power more usefull than the other, fighting game have taugh us as much)

while the style systeme present less freedom but each style would be as valid, making them more ‘real choice’

the main probleme with taking a decision is we barely used our powers yet so i can’t really judge the current system

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I’m not. I, like everyone else, can see the pros and cons of both, especially after reading what everyone had to say. The old style I know what I’m doing already and though it is more to code, I know the coding because I’ve been doing it. The hardest thing is keeping a list of all the powers that can be unlocked and seeing if they fit in a situation. The new style, would definitely be easier to code and I do think it would allow the individual to make up their mind about what kind of fighter they would be, but it also means I have to go back and revamp all the power areas that you have thus seen.

Implementing wise, I would do it like I do the behaviors (Charming, Aggressive, Mysterious, and Business-Minded). Each style would have it’s own bar and your choices will determine how it fills up. This way it would allow the player to get creative and mix different styles up like Chaotic and Warrior would end up dealing tons of crazy damage.

Character development wise, I see what both sides are saying and I can’t actually say one is more right than the other. I don’t like to get into this because I’m just writing them, your characters are yours and how you want them to come off is your business. With that being said, both styles have the ability to involve character development. Like TheBum said, all these powers are from powerlisting.wikia.com and each can be found under Darkness Manipulation. I didn’t think the old style was bland or anything but I also don’t think the new style is bad.

Like I said, I’m okay with both styles which is why I’m looking to the readers to tell me which they prefer.

653

An excellent point.

If done that way then I can see how the new style would be interesting (though at the end of the day I’m good with both to be honest). Mostly because it does sound fun but wouldn’t that still be a lot of work, seeing that there are so many combinations that could be done, plus the individual powers in those combinations?

654

I like either warrior or stealth.

655

I really like what @ToxicDreams has been developing with Villain: The Catalyst and the ideas on powers raised by @Interestedparty and @DreamingGames.

I don’t have a preference for class/classless defined/open powered progression. Thematically, powers can be as diverse or limited in scope and application as the story demands, so long as there’s some plausible internal story world logic.

I’Il use Shoto Todoroki from My Hero Academia as an example if you wanted to structure a powerset, and then compare to the MC in Villain: The Catalyst (keeping in mind it is still WIP and subject to author changes)

In the Academia-verse Quirks come in all varieties, strengths and weaknesses. As has been pointed out, gaining new Quirks is pretty much beyond the reach of every hero and villain. However, this doesn’t stop particularly determined heroes and villains from learning and developing innovating and effective applications for their Quirk, a Quirk specific powerset if you will.

Shoto Todoroki’s Quirk: Half-Cold Half-Hot allows him to generate ice from the right side of his body and flames from the left. If we extrapolate what we’ve seen of Todoroki’s Quirk use in My Hero Academia so far you could structure a potential powerset for a PnP RPG, or a COG superhero adventure. Individual powers/Quirk adaptations would still have to be learnt/developed somehow.

Shoto Todoroki: (using RPG-type super power descriptors)

Quirk(s): Cold Generation / Fire Generation
Powers:
Lower / Raise Temperature
Ice Bolt / Fire Bolt
Ice Surfer (Travel Power)
Ice Wave / Fireball
Ice Barrier / Fire Wall
Ice Cage / Melt
Ice Stomp / Heat Wave

You could throw in possibilities like Infravision (heat signature sight mode ala Predator) and flare, hibernation, absolute zero etc.

The Main Character from Villain: The Catalyst in contrast. Partial list.

Quirk(s): Shadow Generation
Powers:
Darkness Aura
Night Vision (Total)
Shadow Bolt / Shadow Cage / Area Denial: Darkness (Partial)
Dark Teleport (Travel Power - Partial)
Shadow Blast / Area Denial: Darkness (Enhanced)
Shadow Mimicry (Partial), Darkness Solidification (Partial)
Shadow Mutilation (Partial) / Shadow Marionette (Partial)
Darkness Empowerment (Partial)
Darkness Healing (Self/Others) / Dark Teleport (Travel Power - Enhanced)
Shadow Mimicry (Enhanced) / Darkness Solidification (Enhanced)
Shadow Mutilation (Enhanced) / Shadow Marionette (Enhanced)
Darkness Empowerment (Enhanced)

656

One of your names was Specter…so IG a ghost or Demonic battle style could be cool, like Tendrils that restrict movements, complete darkness, etc.

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(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

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I guess your girls don’t know the meaning of a bra

659

You’re just lucky she’s wearing panties ;p

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Could you put the pictures under a spoiler tag or something, please? I’m disturbed by the over sexuality.

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oh, come on, that picture basicaly just has a girl with big breast with the usual comics exageration, she is fully clothed and we get just a mini pantie shot, it’s not overly sexual, even Ranma 1/2 did way worst

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I’m not asking to get rid of it just put it under something. And frankly I find it offensive but I’m trying to do this in a civil way.

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Maybe some people… Don’t like comic portraits of women? Ever thought of that ? Edit: sorry I’m not attacking you, it’s just people have different opinions and frankly I’m tired of oversexualization

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that doesn’t make the drawing overly sexual or innapropriated though, it just make it not to your taste

also not liking comics is kinda weird when following a WIP that is basicaly a comics in text format

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the thing is that if IT IS judged as overly sexual, it HAS to be removed, those are the rules, i’m more against the accusation than the demand to hide it, that’s why i didn’t address that