Vendetta: Rise of a Gangster

I really like the game so far :-j . And I support 13ventrm’s suggestion about having action’s done in the character’s childhood affecting his perspective. :slight_smile:

Very atmospheric start, I like it.

About the possibility of playing a woman in this game, although I don’t think that there is an historical Italian-American female gang leader from the prohibition area (I hope other readers will prove me wrong), you should read about Sidney’s underworld queens
Kate Leigh and Tilly Devine for inspiration, both leading large and violent criminal gangs and not shying away from violence themselves. The wikipedia articles are a good start.

If he trying to be histortical as be can be, by change gender he would be white washing the game. Maybe because love for history, playing history sim, I play woman before time suffurage or era of undermind unequilty there going disadvanges. That it self changes story quite bit.

@13ventrm Certainly food for thought, thanks. There’s definitely scope there for more interaction along the lines you suggest, and it is of course crucial to get the opening right as it can make a big difference to the player being in tune (or not) with the main character and his motives from an early stage.

@Bikkje Thanks. I agree, it’s definitely something worth another look & think.

@Bastiaan I’d never heard of either of those before–interesting stuff, thanks. There is of course no denying that their counterparts existed in the USA to some extent but (with rare exceptions) more so during pre-Prohibition times, and none that I’ve been able to discover of specifically Italian-American descent (i.e. within the very specific focus of the game). That’s not to say it could not happen or would not make for a fascinating “alternate history” scenario, simply that it did not and is therefore not included in this version of the game.

@Rogar Yep, to include a female character option would, in effect, make it a fantasy story / game, and that’s not where I’m intending to go with this. While doing so would certainly please a few people around here, it would also almost certainly destroy the credibility and believability of the work in the eyes of many of its true, intended, audience (and they number in their thousands, if not tens of thousands). For that reason alone, it’s not a compromise I’m willing to make for this version: I’ll just have to take the flak.

That said, “Vendetta: Rise of a Gunmoll” would doubtless be fun and challenging to do next–I would simply rewrite much of the story accordingly to suit. But, given the very specific setting, it would be pure escapist fantasy.

I’d have thought your game is fantasy purely by virtue of the fact the events depicted in it did not actually occur. When you imagine something that is not true, that is what fantasy is. I could imagine the most realistic, dull, day-to-day daydream imaginable, along with one where mushrooms dance the fandango with lime-furred bears all day long and they’d be equally fantastical. Your game is unrealistic sheerly by virtue of the fact it is not real; making the events in the game anything other than escapist fantasy is a ship that has already sailed eighty years ago.

The claim that having a choice of being a woman in the game would destroy its credibility also seems a little far fetched. These ‘true, intended audience’ members would have no compulsion to play as a female character and could avoid that if they wanted to. All you’re doing in leaving that decision out is reducing the number of people who will enjoy your game.

In reply to your last sentence–the only part of this tirade I intend to dignify with an answer–that, surely, is my own decision? If someone else wants to have a go at doing something very similar, but include a female option, they are certainly very welcome to do so. To that person I would gladly leave the difficulties of writing in a gender-neutral fashion in a thoroughly “Man’s world” setting such as the Prohibition gangster era and subsequent American Mafia, and still somehow make it even vaguely realistic and believable. Good luck to them, I say–I am simply not up to the challenge on top of what I’ve already set myself to aim for.

This game look pretty good to play for me.
I hope it will be finish pretty soon.

@Canisa Honey, one shouldn’t dismiss a choose your own adventure game simply because the gender is fixed, you’re also making a bit of a generalization in saying that gender choice alone effects if a player will enjoy the game.

@13ventrm Sometimes, gender choice alone does affect whether a player will enjoy the game.

I agree with Canisa that in a perfect world, every game would allow you to choose gender. Not only that but skin colour, sexual preference, age, hair colour, political sway, religion and a whole lot more besides. However each of these things takes a lot of work to implement and so more often than not, the writer doesn’t add them.
Whereas including your own choice of breed of pet dog might gain you one or two extra readers, the time taken to code it may be seen as too much to make it worthwhile.
Ultimately, we can make suggestions for the writer to include, but the final decision is down to his/her discretion.

@13ventrm Do not call me honey.

@andymwhy The things you have equivocated with gender choice really are not in proportion. Skin colour, sexual preference, age, hair colour, political sway, religion and what breed your pet dog is are not nearly as fundamental to your identity and the way people perceive you as gender. No other aspect of a human being changes the pronouns that people use to address them. No other aspect of a human being has had so consistent and extreme an effect on their social and cultural standing throughout history as their gender.

As for “It’s too much work”, if that really is why Vendetta does not want to include a gender choice he can feel free to email his source code to me and I will set the pronouns myself. Having a gender choice is only work at all if you want to have different stories for different genders. Writing ‘${g}’ where ‘g’ is the label for the relevant gender pronoun variable is not a lot more effort than writing ‘he’, surely?

And while yes, it is his ultimate decision whether to have a gender choice or not, I think he has made the wrong decision and I will not hesitate to continue to tell him that for as long as it is the case.

@Canisa In writing Blackraven I have 19 different variables for male/female so far and counting. 10,000 words in print and I haven’t finished the introduction. Believe it or not, catering for males AND females in a game take one hell of a lot of extra work.

As for gender being more important, tell that to a black male who has been persecuted his whole life for the colour of his skin. Tell it to a homosexual who can’t even tell his brother the truth for fear of what he will do to him. Tell it to a Muslim girl who flees from her family as she fears they will kill her for falling in love with a Jew. It’s all about perspective.

@andymwhy I can think of four gender related variables: He/She; Him/Her; Man/Woman; Male/Female. Please could you enlighten me as to where the other fifteen came from?

As for your second point, it’s a fairly valid one. Though I would point out that sexism has been around a lot longer than black/white racism and Islam. I’m not sure how long people have had a problem with gays, but I can’t imagine its a recent thing; I guess I would agree that homophobia should go on a pedestal alongside sexism for most deep-set illness of the human condition.

Absolutely.

,hepartner: "he"
,his: "his"
,her: "her"
,him: "him"
,he: "he"
,caphe: "He"
,she: "she"
,bald: "bald"
,john: "John"
,tony: "Tony"
,ivan: "Ivan"
,lorne: "Lorne"
,brian: "Brian"
,tommy: "Tommy"
,warden: "Royston Gardner"
,men: "men"
,man: "man"
,guy: "guy"
,male: "male"

‘Hepartner’ refers to your partner in the game (either male or female depending on your choice. You could argue that this is catering for heterosexual/homosexual differences, but it still defines gender).
‘caphe’ is just He/She again, but capitalised as a lot of sentences tend to start He/She.
‘bald’ is in reference to a hairstyle. While true, women could be bald, predominantly they are not and I wanted to keep realism in the game.
The characters in the games are the ones who don’t have a uni-sex name. These change to female names for female players (necessary in a male/female only prison).
The others are self-explanatory.

Edit: The list could easily expand as I add more characters or decide to have characters with facial hair. I have also omitted to use his/hers (different to his/her) so far in the game, but could add it if necessary (tbh it’s easy to get around using this one as I can substitute the character’s name instead).

Let’s not play the “Whose oppression is greater” game. I’m also offended by the term “black/white racism” People of African and Native American descent have been screwed over by white imperialism the most and I won’t dispute it, but they’re not the only ones. We have to understand that prejudice is intersectional. No oppression is the same.

That said, race is multitudes more varied than gender identity and sexuality. As people, we should always strive to be as inclusive as our fellow sapiens. Gender and sexuality is already within our means to include all of. One step is taken, let’s take another.

@andymwhy I have no idea when the baldness would figure in your game, but it is kind of wrong to say that it is realistic to use the predominant style of hair. The wording is just really strange.

It’s clearly a contentious issue and deserving of reasonable discussion. My personal objection is to see these accusations being posted all over the place, time and time again, simply because a handful of highly-opinionated people seem to think that they have the right (or a solemn duty, as they may see it) to tell someone else what they should–or should not–include in their game design (or their book, or their artwork, or any other form of creative expression).

That to me is arrogant and presumptious in the extreme, and I find it every bit as offensive as being called “sexist” just because I have no wish to include a female character option in this version of the game, or homophobic should I not have a gay option (it does, but that’s beside the point) or racist if the character cannot be anything other than an Italian-American (which he cannot). OR whatever.

No amount of bombastic vitriol is going to change the simple fact that we do not have the right to dictate to another in this fashion. It really is as simple as that.

@ScarletGeisha, I thought that was clear, but let me elaborate. I wanted to have one character in the game be bald, a relatively common occurrence among men. For the female equivalent, I decided to give her a short hair style instead as it would be unusual for a woman to be bald.
In writing from the male and female perspective, I want the game to seem natural rather than have someone complain that the female has ‘male characteristics’. As I also said in the same post, I will do the same for facial hair, if I choose that route, as again, writing a female character with a beard, while not impossible, is sure to stand out. Exactly what I don’t want for a minor visual characteristic.

@andymywhy Thanks for the list of variables. A lot of those honestly had not occurred to me. Especially ‘caphe’, that one was a real eye-opener; I didn’t think about the need for capitalisation at all.

The names issue could be avoided by using surnames and nick-names, though. Not that I’m saying you should, just that you could.

Guys we alll love play games, why here do need go dwell on this topic that more dead then roman republic? No product is going to please ever one. Getting upsetting over this like me getting upset people see me and think nazi.

You can just do !{he} instead of {caphe}. The ! will capitalize the first letter of the variable.