Vendetta: Rise of a Gangster

Canisa · 2012-01-26T15:46:27.000Z

@Rogar I know what you’re saying, but I don’t want to play a game like that. If you were to make a game where the player becomes ruler of China, I would want both genders to attain that position the same way. You could have that as a choice; will you manipulate your way to the throne or simply fight anyone who gets in your way?

I certainly don’t think you should have it so that female characters have to manipulate their way into the palace and men have to fight for the right to sit on the throne.

@paul The thing is, Paul, almost every single game, film and book that comes out has the same problem as this one. While I certainly don’t have to play/watch/read them, it seriously limits my ability to partake in entertainment if I do that. I’d much rather have the gender choice be present so that I can play this game, because believe it or not; I actually do want to. There’s a real need for this debate because exclusionary entertainment is a very serious cultural issue that plays an inestimably huge role in social marginalisation.

paul · 2012-01-26T15:51:42.000Z

But you don’t HAVE to play.

Canisa · 2012-01-26T15:53:45.000Z

@paul I know I don’t have to play, but I want to. Unfortunately I am unwilling to do so because of the marginalising viewpoint of the work. The concept behind it seems really excellent, and if not for the critical flaw that it does not include a gender choice I would probably be singing the praises of this game just as heartily as anyone else in this thread.

13ventrm · 2012-01-26T15:57:14.000Z

Is having a male protagonist really this big a deal?

Epicazeroth · 2012-01-26T16:06:47.000Z

Exactly! You’re acting like it’s the end of the world or someone has done you some deep, personal wrong. And you have to have some semblance of accuracy, otherwise you’ve made your own universe completely unrelated in any way to this one.

paul · 2012-01-26T16:08:11.000Z

ok I get what you are saying but the era in which it is set in is sexist and racist to edit a period in time would make it seem less realistic and lower the standard . This is a waist of time I don’t think us talking about this will change the game in any way.

Bikkje · 2012-01-26T16:23:09.000Z

Anyway, I have another suggestion for the game, if you choose to be a war veteran the game says in the intro that you sometimes have nightmares that make you wake up screaming. Perhaps you can have an episode like this while sleeping next to your love interest?

paul · 2012-01-26T16:38:16.000Z

yea I have also thought about a love interest being introduced it would add yet another aspect to a great game.

Canisa · 2012-01-26T16:56:12.000Z

@Epicazeroth This game is suggesting that it is okay to marginalise women. I am a woman, I am a person. Therefore not including a male protagonist is doing me a deep, personal wrong. It’s doing a deep, personal wrong to three and a half billion people.

@paul I’ve already explained that I do not think historical accuracy is an acceptable reason for a work of fiction to include discrimination. I’ve also already said that I think this argument is turning in to a waste of time and that arguing isn’t going to solve the problem. Perhaps I could suggest you try reading the entire discussion before weighing in on it? Just a suggestion, mind.

Anyway, I will re-iterate my desire to set aside argument and strong language in favour of a more diplomatic resolution to what is essentially devolving into a back-and-forth slugging match of no practical use to anyone.

13ventrm · 2012-01-26T17:12:03.000Z

@Canisa You’re making a bit of a generalization by claiming that I should feel that a male protagonist is somehow wronging me.

Canisa · 2012-01-26T17:50:34.000Z

@13ventrm I feel that it does. Perhaps you don’t see it that way, but even if it’s a wrong you can forgive, it’s still a wrong. It’s still suggesting that women have nothing meaningful to contribute to society and culture, as well as reinforcing the idea that women have no place in gaming and entertainment. If you can look past that and still enjoy the game for what it is apart from all of those things, that’s great. I, however, want something more.

13ventrm · 2012-01-26T18:01:48.000Z

@Canisa Could you elaborate on how exactly it does that? It’s a game that happens to center around a male, does a book that happens to center around a male protagonist suggest that females have no place in literature?

Rogar · 2012-01-26T18:19:36.000Z

@Bikkje not bad idea, thing when some vets came from WW1 the just want to really wanted die, that experience, was scars of that war goes beyond worst ghettos. So him coming back home to dead sister, what would be his modoivater beyond revenge to run a crime family?

@Canisa you very passion woman and I respect that well spoken about thoughts. But this game special format evlotion of old gaming books, which even less choice then this. Geting mad at Vendetta, is geting upset, Neil Gaiman have male protagonist in his work. Or watching film that only male lead. Your stop your self for enjoy pieces work in case something quite small.

Have you ever read novel Pillar of Earth? If have not great good example of historical fiction. It has least three different protaganists, one woman climing high socal status throught her own means.

Luxtizer · 2012-01-26T18:22:44.000Z

I have to admit I’m also a little confused by the point being made here. Certainly, the game depicts discrimination, marginalization, and exploitation of women. No question about that. But I don’t see it as implicitly or explicitly condoning that attitude. The game contains a lot of objectionable, downright evil stuff the player or others can do in even the small segment already available. Murder, smuggling, armed robbery, assault, sale and consumption of illegal substances, concealing evidence of other crimes, and more can be performed or witnessed. It’s probably not a terribly difficult task to commit ten different felonies in the first chapter alone. But I see nothing in how the game presents this material that suggests it’s saying this is an acceptable way to behave, that these are ‘good’ choices, or that the world the game depicts is the way the world should be. I’m not sure what is seen as condoning the treatment of women that was prevalent in the time period depicted.

Epicazeroth · 2012-01-26T18:24:07.000Z

It’s not suggesting that, you just keep saying that even when people explain it to you. BTW, I’ll take your reply to me at face value and it says that it’s doing you a deep personal wrong to not have a male protagonist. And really, accuracy is a good reason for anything short of theft, murder, or another serious crime. If you change that, you undermine the whole time period and the fact remains that there were almost no female gangsters. Besides, he would have to rewrite almost the entire game to incorporate females as a choice due to the fact that some of the character’s friends wouldn’t make sense with a female PC. Just because there happens to not be a female protagonist doesn’t mean that women have nothing to offer.

Rogar · 2012-01-26T18:24:31.000Z

Quite question, each background around has own little side stories along with main plot, and find your sister killer?

Epicazeroth · 2012-01-26T18:30:37.000Z

Also, Canissa, if you remove discrimination from everything, then we won’t know about it, won’t realize it’s wrong, and do it again. Also, sometimes it’s necessary in a work of fiction, that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. If someone wrote a book that involves torture, slavery, murder, and dozens of other heinous crimes, would that mean those things are acceptable? No, it would mean they happen to be in the book.

ScarletGeisha · 2012-01-26T19:55:18.000Z

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Stories about discrimination must exist, because it is not over yet and it is important for marginalised groups to raise their voices.

However, it is so easy for people to include it in fiction and use grit or realism as an excuse to indulge in them. “Oh the point of this eroticised rape of the young maiden is that it’s horrible and if you feel icky then it works!” You might say but don’t think we don’t know you’re fapping to it.

13ventrm · 2012-01-26T20:16:47.000Z

So in conclusion, stick to your guns Vendetta, you’ve got good stuff.

Toasters · 2012-01-26T21:16:59.000Z

I agree with 13ventrm