The Dragoon Saga (Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity) - General Discussion

low-fantasy
gender-locked-male

#7817

They are scary because they are totally and utterly convinced by and a servant to their cause, beyond reason. They fully believe what they are doing is just, never have doubts, and never question if the very things they do for that cause directly prove that their cause is not worth fighting for.

There is a fine line between “I’m making tough sacrifices and making hard decisions for the greater good” and “my cause is always just and no matter what I do, as long as it is in that causes interest, it shall be made right.” At some point, a person in the former must ask themselves if they’ve gone over to the latter, and most times a person in the latter will never even realize this is an issue (case in point, Caius and - possibly - Katarina, although that’s subject to debate).


#7818

It’s not even so much the “worth fighting for” part as the element of…

I don’t think of myself as pure enough - I don’t think of myself as anywhere near pure enough - to get too close to Joan without being burnt, so I say this as someone who likes this song:

There’s something fundamentally discomforting about people dedicated enough to be radiating fire. It’s alien and Other far more than more explicitly wicked things.

Not to say that “blind to if they’re doing wrong” isn’t unsettling, but I wanted to note this as part of talking about Caius’s values.

Caius does a better job living up to the things I agree with him on than I do by far. I like what that says about me even less than what it says about me that we share values about anything.


#7819

Scimitars in the grip of Individuality.

It doesn’t change it, but it does put it in a different perspective. It’s not like all the men are at the top; there are even more men who are at the very bottom.

That’s different. That’s a case of the women choosing to stay home and do those sorts of things. If she’s being forced into it then she should consider getting out of the relationship.

But we are also seeing cases where the men stay home, or situations where both parents are working.

And what makes you think I am arguing in favour of “the system”?

I don’t like discrimination against men or women, period. It just irritates me that the men’s side of things is getting more or less completely ignored. I don’t see this getting discussed nearly as often as it should be.

Male suicide rates and domestic abuse (against men) are some of the most frequently broached topics by MRAs, are they not?

Also, there are good MRAs and there are bad ones. Some of them just spend their time bitching about women, but others are actually serious and genuine in their concerns.

And if that’s the sole reason they are acting insecure about it, then yes, I agree - they are mainly concerned about themselves.

But there’s also more to be concerned about than just that.


Anyway, it’s past 1:00AM for me and I’m becoming too tired to continue this argument, so I think I’m going to sign off for the night.


#7820

I, as well, feel this way. I wish I could be more like him in many ways actually (I’ll explain).

I disagree with this, slightly. I share the opinion that I don’t like the fact that he lives up to the our shared values more than I do, but I wouldn’t say sharing any values at all is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, he is my favorite character ever because of the things we share value in (besides him being so well written, or course).

I respect him (as much as anyone can respect a fictional character) for his bravery (maybe its fatalism, but still), his strength (not just of arms but of his dedication to something, even if that something is misplaced), and to his stalwart duty and discipline. He is so resolved (maybe that leads to bad things as well, but in itself that is a good trait), determined, and, as you put it, “so much of what he is”.

Of course, there are many awful things about him, but I think most people get so wrapped up in the bad of a person that they refuse to see the good because they can’t see the whole picture (and vise-versa).


#7821

Well, a lot of it boils down to something subjective.

There are certainly things he believes in that aren’t objectionable, but I’m not sure how I feel, on a more intellectual level, about regarding this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GClnBMwUb6U
as a good thing in the first place (what the song is singing of, not the song as a piece of music).

I’d like to think I have I value human life more than he does, but I’m not sure what it says about me that “my values” contain more than a little “You say self-abnegating as if that’s a bad thing.”, and Caius brings up why that makes me uncomfortable.

“You say that there is more to life than faith and duty. Like what? Training?”

“…I really wish I knew how to disagree with you.” isn’t a good feeling, even if he’s not evil for it.


#7822

That’s not necessarily true, especially since the “low-prestige” careers you cite are often unionised, reasonably well-compensated, and still seen as “real” jobs for “real” workers.

The bottom consists of work which is often delegitimised as labour altogether: sex work (coded female), freelance art (often coded female), and basically anything involving a social studies degree of some sort (coded female, with gender studies getting the worst of it).

Is it? Long-term relationships aren’t easy things to leave, especially when you’re tied to a partner through shared property and other commitments like children. Even when women earn more, they’re still often burdened with a lot of the housework..

As cudgels against feminists, if that, using the symptoms of a system they continue to defend as a weapon against the people who want to dismantle it.

The demand that women be passive, uncomplaining receptacles, and that men be dominant, emotionally vacant pillars of strength are two sides of the same coin. If you want to see what feminists are doing to dismantle both sides of that system, actually pay some attention to the discourse around “toxic masculinity” instead of dismissing it as some kind of misandrist buzzword, because a lot of that discussion strikes at the root of issues like male suicide rates and male-on-male and female-on-male domestic abuse. The idea that we should be able to treat ourselves like human beings with human weaknesses rather than infallible god-kings who can only exposit our emotions through anger is something which has been key to that discourse for years, and it’s been something high-profile enough for even our PM to comment on.

The fact that the concept of toxic masculinity is both seen as (for good or for ill) a part of feminist theory and actually is a part of feminist theory seems to me to suggest that the mainstream feminist discourse cares plenty about how patriarchal systems of power negatively affect us as well as women.


#7823

I see what you’re saying, and I agree.

It is kind of discomforting that the way he looks at everything is so logical and well placed, at least within his own mind. But that is what you can’t forget, that Cazarosta takes things that most people (just like myself, and I dare say you) find irrefutably good, or at least respectable, and he makes them work so strongly in his favor that the things that are questionable about him are then clouded, almost as if he’s given himself merit.

At the end of the day, he is a sociopath, pure and simple. He values duty, faith, and training (a few other things, but you get the point), just as you said, and that is about it. Within those things he values, things other people value as well, he is so… accomplished. This establishes a common ground, but it doesn’t rectify all the strong differences of himself and others.

At this point, I believe, people try to focus on that common ground so much that they lose sight of who he really is (a sociopath who burns women and children civilians alive) and, thusly, they are shocked when he burns women and children civilians alive because he is a sociopath.

Where other people try to focus on that common ground because they are of right mind and are empathetic, Cazarosta does not because he is unempathetic and can’t possibly understand why people value other things in life than he does.

The life of a sociopath is a very self-centered one.

(When I say “people”, I mean people within world and without, though I’d say most them come from without. Also, I don’t mean all people. I mean the ones with a disposition towards Cazarosta, including myself.)


#7824

It’s always a balance that I strive for, I try my best to do my dishes, make the bed, change the air conditioning filters, and a few other odds and ends. We also make sure to alternate cooking and the like. Also keeping the channel open is very important, like right now she’s about to graduate with her nursing degree, on top of raising our first kid, so anything to make her life easier is the goal. Namely if she feels that I’m not doing something she knows to go and tell me that way it doesn’t simmer to a boiling point.

Making relationships work is hard- but it always helps when you are best friends, partners in everything, and as cliche as it seems communicate. If you don’t let them know there’s a problem, it’s hard to come up with ways to fix them.


#7825

Same, to be honest. My wife and I come from different socio-economic backgrounds, and have different ideas of what qualifies as “housework” and what qualifies as “clean”. It’s been a bit of an uphill struggle for both of us to meet each others’ standards, but communication has been important (although I’m not really all that good at it), as has a dogged determination to do at least half the housework every month.


#7826

Since I don’t have much to add on Rapid’s comment on Cazarosta, something that came to mind on gender:

Hergé himself denied being a misogynist, saying that “for me, women have nothing to do in a world like Tintin’s, which is the realm of male friendship”.[10]

I don’t think this is in and of itself vile awful stuff in the sense clearly the author was a creepy bastard who should be damned. But the idea that I’m more suited to “male bonding” in the sense of any of the traditions of that than someone who identifies as a woman purely because I identify as a man is pretty disturbing.

I don’t think it was meant to be, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t.


#7827

It’s a relic of a time when male and female spheres were heavily segregated, and you’ll see some of that in Lords of Infinity as well, especially in regards to Aetoria’s clubs. In a lot of ways, the historical inspirations for clubs like the Rendower and the Admiralty served as second, exclusively masculine homes for their members, which meant that surreally, those who more or less lived there were able to act more “at home” there than in their actual homes, where they’d be in the presence of the female members of their families and thus, constrained by the complex set of rules which governed gender relations among the middle and upper classes of 18th and 19th century Britain.

In a time when gentlemen were neither expected to show weakness or laxity in front of ladies, “male bonding” was probably the environment when a man of a certain class and status could be the most uninhibited - at least until mores changed and that sort of thing fell to the wayside out of fears of homosexuality.


#7828

Yeah. I don’t want to say Tintin is anything extraordinary here, it’s more that it really isn’t for its day that strikes me as troubling.

Tintin specifically may be fair for its day, it may not, but I do not wish to see the spheres and biases that created those spheres in the world I live in as far as the actual expectations and limitations placed on me and others.


#7829

James Bond doesn’t sleep with a Bond Girl just because she’s smart or tough, although that certainly doesn’t hurt. He sleeps with her because she’s hot. So consider your MC the hot bond girl to Katarina’s Bond. :wink:

Ellie’s domain is also a far more pleasant place to live and has serious upgrade potential unlike Kat’s barren rock.

I do hope she doesn’t turn out to be a player. Given the risk of pregnancy and the lack of a reliable means of birth control coupled with the potential of scandal, she probably isn’t that promiscuous, but Cata scares me sometimes.

My inclination is the opposite because Kat’s father is still alive to potentially smooth the way, but it’s all guess work at thus point. Only time will tell.

Agreed. The odds of the Curtain of Storms coming down are probably higher than Sandoral’s chances with Ellie.

It appears to me that this sort of scandal would be far more damaging to a non-heiress who brings less to the table and is much more dependent on landing a good husband, especially if the heiress’s father or guardian is determined to ignore it.


#7830

Absolutely. As always, money may not buy happiness, but it can certainly buy security, and insulation from unpleasant consequences.


#7831

Hahaha… that’s why i don’t see Katarina as James Bond, she could be female version of Jonathan Steel (some old tv show named Avengers) and his sidekick was Emma Peel :-):grin: … Well, Katarina could be looking for someone who is going to unconditionally loyal to her too :-):hugs:

Lady Katarina could live with our MC though , i should have a pleasant estate :-):thinking:

To be fair, i don’t really need the money … so money is not a concern at all , i still have few hundred left :slight_smile:


#7832

Yeah, he’s talking about the other meaning of the word…

Edit: improved version of the meme I posted a while ago


#7833

If you are not looking for money. Just curious on relationship. Boy you in for a surprise

Why does everyone keeps saying that hope katrina isn’t pregnant. Its been long time since they slept.if she got pregnant she is hiding baby already.


#7834

@Cataphrak Are we gonna have a chance to tell Cazarosta that we are in a relationship with his sister?

To everyone else: Guesses on how Cazarosta gonna react when we tell him we are in a relationship with his sister?


#7835

“Did I give you the impression that I care, !lastname?”


#7836

Lol… I can estimate that with the debts settle , we could have steady positive income anyway :-):stuck_out_tongue:

And yes… of course it is the journey of the relationship that make it memorable … there was mention in the story that MC had live a lonely military lifr all this life , without opportunity to even courting a lady, those i interested were all married… and the emergence of Katarina naturally create a turbulance in my quiet life that money can’t bought :wink:

I don’t think there should be problem even if Katarina is pregnant … should there be ? :-):thinking:

But no point guessing, we will make our own choice in Book 3 when it happens :-):sweat_smile:

@player just say to him “Guess we are family now buddy…” :-):grin: