The Dragoon Saga (Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity) - General Discussion

low-fantasy
gender-locked-male

#7777

Key and Peele did an absolutely hilarious take on the very serious debate regarding the song:

All credits to Key and Peele and Comedy Central

On a serious note, many American men (including the president and the newset SOCTUS justice) have shown that, even in 2018, they still don’t understand or care about consent. You can see how a song where the guy keeps on trying and giving his date alcohol, even after told “no”, could raise some questions regardless of anything else.


#7778

Speaking as an American, as in it may be different in other countries, but we are a long distance away from anything that would count as adequately teaching on the subject.

I’m not saying this song should be specifically singled out of all things out there, but I do think it bears talking about that this can sound off as part of talking about these things.

Not because “this song is specifically that kind of song”, but because “the guy tries to make you stay even if you’re not sure you want to” is a thing that doesn’t always use entirely different language.


#7779

And I think it’s perfectly fine to open up a discussion about that.

I just think the ‘controversy’ is going way further than it should, and that too many people are coming to the wrong conclusion.


#7780

Unless there’s something where people are being beaten up for singing it or being fired or that sort of thing, I don’t think it’s going further than it should or people coming to an obviously wrong conclusion given the attitudes of the 1940s and the 2010s.

For me personally, finding it off putting is that I don’t think it sounds very romantic unless it’s obviously playful-cute - it’s not so much “offensive” as “this doesn’t ring my jingle bells”. This isn’t something that I’d generally bring up except that there’s an element of “different people are going to hear it differently” even if the creator intended playful-cute.

So I’m rather in favor of people who take it negatively speaking up about that.


#7781

If people who like the song or defend it are being unfairly judged for it then I think that’s a problem, because it can have an impact on those people’s reputation or how they are being perceived by others. There are also calls to have it banned, which is even more problematic for those who actually look forward to listening to it.

I think people should be able to listen to a song without other people trying to ban it or denouncing it as supporting rape culture (when it isn’t actually doing that.)


#7782

This. Very well said Erin.


#7783

So, what we have right now, in other words.


#7784

Except there are people trying to ban it or denounce it…


#7785

I’ve personally never been bothered by this song so that’s the view point I’m coming in with. My question now is is it as creepy or suggestive of darker intentions if the genders are flipped?

The first video that pops up on YouTube has the original song that was posted earlier as well as an old version where it’s also the guy who wants to go away.


#7786

It should be, but a lot of people won’t see it that way due to double standards.


#7787

Just to throw in my two cents: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the song itself. While some of language comes across very differently in 2018 than it did in the 1940s, I don’t think it’s fair to hold it against the song given the wildly different context it was written in.

However, I do want to say that this argument

has merit. There’s value in using it as a vehicle to discuss this very real societal issue, even if I don’t think the song itself should be condemned or accused of encouraging it.


#7788

There’s a difference between “people criticizing this song” and “person personally attacked for listening to this song”.

I’d be grateful to see examples of the latter posted, but “people wrote saying they don’t want this song aired” isn’t exactly automatically censorship.

If I paid attention to what’s played on the radio enough to have opinions on it, I might request some of the songs I don’t like not be played simply because “I’m a listener, I have opinions, and you presumably want your current listeners to continuje listen to you.” just out of pure personal subjective taste. Just like I express what games I like or don’t like when talking to people.

“It’s creepy when a person with more power does something as opposed to when a person with less power does something.” is not exactly a case of unfair standards.


#7789

It’s an unfair standard when you automatically assume that the man has more power.

Alternatively: accept that other people do like the song, then switch to a different station and wait for the song to end before switching back.


#7790

Are we basing power solely on physical strength that would, by average, favor one gender over another? Exceptions to that exist. Would those cases merit a different verdict?

(This is honestly turning much darker than I wanted and I’m bowing out)


#7791

It is undeniable that in the 1940’s a male in the had more institutional power than a female (all other things equal)


#7792

Okay, but the criticism towards this song stems from the belief that we should evaluate it with today’s standards.


#7793

We live in a society that isn’t gender-equal, and in a direction that does favor men over women when other areas of inequality aren’t an issue.

Other people liking a song means they can express their support, just as me not liking it means I can express my lack of it.

I’m basing the statement on this. Once we get into “a black man and a white woman” and that sort of thing, we get more complicated issues, but it’s still the issue of institutional power and privilege rather than physical muscle.

Not to drag you back into this if you want to bow out, I just wanted to clarify for anyone who isn’t.


#7794

And there are areas where women are favoured over men.

Specifically in regards to divorce cases, child custody cases, domestic abuse cases, rape cases, and certain female dominated careers.


#7795

Rape cases are most certainly not such a case. Not even close.


#7796

I don’t think that’s true, but I believe we’ve had this debate long ago and I’m not looking to get into it again.