The Dragoon Saga (Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity) - General Discussion

low-fantasy
gender-locked-male

#7075

So if it is snapped the person who did so would be called Oathbreaker?


#7076

It’s not “bending over” to occasionally agree with the amateur on stuff instead of continually disagreeing with them whether related to your field or not.

Your PC seems to have pretty much no views in common with her on anything that has come up, nor any interest in trying to soothe ruffled feathers so you (the plural you) can work together better. I’m not really surprised that she takes that strongly.

I think you would have to work hard and long for every decision your PC makes politically to have “Tierra’s existence as an independent power depends on his decision” to that extent.

The PC is not comparable to Khorobirit as far as being a force that has to be stopped or he does have the power to dictate Tierra’s future, I’d be more than a little surprised if our influence (as far as our own arguments, as distinct from any backing we may receive from more powerful figures who agree with us) is even as strong as it was on Keane’s tribunal when it comes to the ARC, for example.

Short of that kind of power and threat, even the state of politics we’re returning home to is not one where the Dragoon Officer is obviously a justifiable target for murder if we’re going on “Lady Katarina was willing to do this in this situation.” and not “Lady Katarina will soon start justifying murder for someone ordering the wrong kind of wine, because that proves his blatant partisanship to Warburton.”

Yes, it’s easier to justify doing it twice after doing it once, but you’re being suspicious to an extreme in assuming it will be that easy.

I don’t want to say with my limited knowledge of her that she would be absolutely unwilling to kill the PC over anything short of treason, but we have far less in the way of information to suggest that she would plot that without something unusually dire even in the context of something like the Dozen Years War.


#7077

She’d actually assassinate him for buying the wrong type of bread, not ordering the wrong type of wine. The former shows that the MC is aligned with Warburton far more clearly than the latter.


#7078

So even if the advice is badly misinformed, to the point of disregarding supply situations and logistics, we should still listen and agree with them so as to not hurt their feelings? The MC can be a dick and disagree or try and tell Katarina why they disagree. I’d say trying to educate her as to why a professional acts the way they do at least indicates there is some attempt at cooperation. Regardless, she doesn’t respect our experience or explanation, it’s either her way or nothing. Even conceding the MC is right about the partisan ambush is described as extracting a splinter from underneath her finger nail. I’d say she has far less interest in cooperating if she can barely even acknowledge when she was wrong.

I never said it will, the MC won’t become king or anything of the sort. We do know that he can be 2nd in command of of the entire RTA by the end of the game, an Earl, and no doubt wield a significant amount of political power and influence. The PC is also not Khorobirit, as I said, the stakes begin to lower as to what can be interpreted as a threat in a very ruthless person’s mind.

I feel as though I should state for the record that I do not expect to be shanked by Katarina right after I step off of the boat back home to Tierra as you seem to think I do. Nor do I think that she will start trying to murder us over our dinner preferences. I do think that, over the course of the series, if the MC remains on bad to hostile terms with Katarina and opposes her longterm views, even incidentally, I would not be surprised to find out she will attempt to resort to murder. Her brother can already attempt to kill us twice already, once in SoI in the boarding action, and once in GoI during 2K if I’m not mistaken. She is also an accomplish intelligence agent who personally plotted the assassination of Aleksandra and Anna.

Please do not characterize my mistrust of such an individual as needless worrying and paranoia. I believe myself justified in not underestimating someone who is just as ruthless as Caz, yet has vastly more money, connections, and the backing of RTI. As you say, neither you or I know for sure how Katarina will act later in the series, but I feel as though her actions in the DYW, her “patriotism”, and her overall ruthlessness can cause her to view the MC as a target, much like Caz can. I understand the circumstances won’t be easily obtainable, like Caz, but I believe that something similar will be achievable.


#7079

Not exactly, no. “Even if the advice is based on a valid consideration that she has good reason to regard highly, though not the only relevant or valid consideration”.

I don’t think it’s wrong to disagree with her, but I don’t think it’s a case of the poor expert being forced to throw his judgment to the winds for the sake of her feelings - she has a valid point, and someone intent on having a working relationship with her can acknowledge that.

“Both routes have problems.” is kind of the whole dilemma.

Which is a long ways off (“by the end of the game”) as far as if the PC continues to clash with Lady Katarina about everything or not.

“Ruthless” does not mean “a never ending series of increasingly flimsy rationalizations for extreme actions”. I - the person typing this - would advocate fairly ruthless measures in some contexts, but that doesn’t mean I plan on advocating bombing of everything that looks at the US funny.

This is why I think you’re posing an extreme level of suspicion:

Sure, if you remain bitter foes for the next few games in unyielding opposition to her views - even though the areas of her expertise may be far more relevant than they were when deciding whether or not to chase a few partisans - and bitter personal feeling, and direly threaten the things she cares about as a consequence, and she’s unable to address that with less extreme means - sure, that’s one thing.

But “I don’t think she’ll be a completely law-abiding and upstanding individual in peacetime”, or “I think if you are a bitter, long term enemy who is a great threat to her and hers” isn’t the same as

I’m not trying to use your words against you, just show what I’m reacting to as far as calling it excessive.

“He disagreed with me on a RTA vs. RTI debate! Clearly the only viable solution is to kill him.” is not normal even for Caius level “willing to kill people for having bad opinions”. Caius is quite annoyed about the PC having bad opinions on killing Strellyk, but not murderous.

It just reads to me like you assume that she’s going to be the worst of possible things, not merely “I would expect she’d take it worse than other people” or “the PC can expect her to be slower to forgive”.


#7080

The perpetrator could also have been Caz as Kat’s mother mistreated him too. And we -know- he’s a sociopath.

From what I recall the % Fairmath relationship stat increase after the MC explains to Kat why chasing partisans in a forested area the partisans know far better is a bad idea, is equal to the % Fairmath relationship stat decrease when the MC doesn’t send his troops running after the partisans in the woods in the first place. The problem is that the stat is over 50 so because of the way Fairmath works, the actual point decrease is just a tad higher than the point increase and you just barely miss the cut-off for the friendlier Kat which kills the opportunities to increase her relationship stat further for the rest of the trip.

She didn’t kill either Anna or Aleksa herself however, and she did say that capture is just as acceptable as death. From Kat’s perspective she has responsibilities to her family and her country but owes absolutely nothing to either Anna or Aleksa. So if killing one or the both of them saves Tierran lives, she’s ruthless enough to be absolutely fine with Lefebvre or the MC doing so. That doesn’t mean she will commit murder herself at the drop of the hat.


#7081

Jaime was right on that count.


#7082

Heck, she seems to prefer Anna alive (and Aleksandra dead, due to ending Khorobirit’s line) Not sure that’s exactly comforting, but it sounds like she is particular about what she crosses the murder line over - in unsettling ways, but as far as the slippery slope she seems to be going for less than complete “kill everything to be sure”.


#7083

That’s a very interesting observation.


#7084

Not a very inspired one, I admit:

“A pity,” Lady Katarina remarks a few minutes later as she looks down upon the crumpled body in red upon the dais. “I would have preferred to take her alive.”

Lefebvre, standing next to her and sporting a few new cuts, seems inclined to disagree. “Does it matter?” he asks. “Alive or dead, she’s fulfilled the purpose of the plan.”

The intelligence agent frowns. “Perhaps, but the way of it seems to me so messy, barely a step above murder, if even that.”

I can’t quite tell if that’s “She would be more useful alive.” or a lingering echo of her conscience, but…

In a different variant of the scene:

“I do not see why such a distinction matters,” the grenadier answers coolly. “Dead or prisoner, Princess Khorobirit’s part in this entire scheme is fulfilled.”

If it was the Colonel’s intent to mollify the dark-haired noblewoman with his words, they have rather the opposite effect. The tone of the intelligence agent’s reply is only a few degrees above frigid. “The distinction matters, sir, because some of us would rather not waste human life unless absolutely necessary.”


#7085

Not ignoring all your points, but I’m also trying to condense this response.

I’ll concede on the “both routes have problems” decision, but the partisan decision is pretty much just a bad tactical interpretation plain and simple. Sending men into unfamiliar terrain that is infested with partisans who are likely falling back into prepared positions for an ambush is something I’d expect of Renard.

The issue is we don’t know for sure if reconciliation is even possible with Katarina. If she learned from Caz how to hold a grudge then I doubt she’ll be anything other than an enemy or at least opposed to the MC. Also that quote was about a very different situation, an initially good and romantic relationship between the MC and her that collapses over time. Nowhere near the same situation we are now discussing, though I may have provided a poor example in that case.

Yup, I do expect the worst possible things from both her and Caz. Again, her brother, whom she is described as being very in sync with at the end of GoI, could have already attempted to kill us twice. Why do you believe that it is so inconceivable that an MC who is enemies with Katarina and Caz could remain a target throughout the rest of the series? Even if they don’t amount to much politically, they can still kill Caz’s career as a soldier since they’re either Lt. Col. or a Major with seniority.

I had not seen that particular scene yet GoI, so I’ll also concede that she seems to be at least a little less ruthless than Caz. That still does not mean I would put my trust in her.

@P_Tigras
And we also know that he isn’t afraid to at least attempt murder as well. I don’t know if the timelines would match up though, with Caz being in Antar since he was 16.

Ah, another reason to dislike fairmath. I’ve never liked how it always seems punish failure far more than it likes to reward success, but fairmatg was already discussed to death way back when the GoI demo first dropped.


#7086

Katarina and Caius seem like they truly, deeply believe that what they are doing is for the good of Tierra, and that no cruelty should be avoided if that said cruelty will save Tierran lives in the long run. For that very reason, I am absolutely sure that Katarina will lead us down even more dark and morally grey paths in the future if we remain romantically involved with her. This could be a major problem if we are also friends with Lord Cassius, or the Kian ambassador that will be introduced in LOI. I could easily see her trying to use our friendship with the ambassadors to get us to spy on Takara or Kian, or to even betray our friends in some way. Of course, Kat could also use our role in her secret mission in order to blackmail us, knowing that if the truth comes out, a poor baron will have a lot more to lose than the powerful Leoniscourt family.


#7087

I disagree, but it’s not a major decision either tactically or in regards to your relationship with her (if you’re merely attempting “we agree on some things and not others”).

It’s very possible to agree with her on some things, disagree with her on others, and wind up with a neutral relationship.

As a character who builds up enough of a relationship with her to be invited to the secret mission, it’s not that hard to end comfortably above enmity, and that with turning down her invitation being taken pretty negatively as far as modifiers go.

I’m not objecting to the idea that a person who is actively Katarina’s enemy is someone she might consider killing in the right circumstances. I’m objecting to the argument that “She would regard a PC who is a thorn her side in the same light as she would regard Khorobirit as far as what ends justify the means in question”.

That’s not so much “Katarina values whether or not Tierra wins the war more than she values the lives of Khorobirit’s wife and daughter” as “Katarina considers the PC the way one might consider a courtier in Crusader Kings 2.” - which might be appropriate for Caius, but we have the author stating he’s a sociopath and she’s not one. That matters as far as how far she’d go for something.


#7088

Yes, well, just as you said, Katarina does prefer the daughter killed and is jubilant if the child is killed and only happy if she is captured. Maybe she has her reasons, but I think that says a lot about her “conscious”. She has no remorse over it and even comforts a MC who feels guilty over it or assures an MC is comfortable with it. Cataphrak has already said that only the most monstrous MC’s would have no remorse at all over the girls death. Different perspectives but still…

While it may be very easy to have a poor relationship with Kat and very hard to have a good relationship with her, she doesn’t have a kenemy stat. Now, do I think she is capable of murder of a MC who repeatedly blocks or even annoys her political moves? Yes, I do. Do I think that if that relationship is low enough that murdering a MC would be easier for her? Yes, I do. Do I think that once the MC says one thing or does one thing against her that she will say in her head “he’s a dead man” (and mean it) as Caz does? No.

She’s certainly complex.


#7089

Lady Katarina, on the other hand, smiles again. “I am glad you do not, sir; that which we have done today shall break the power of the House of Khorobirit for decades, if not forever. In an evening’s work, we have not just removed a dagger pointed at Tierra’s throat but broken it entirely.”

We don’t know what she’s thinking. We just have her saying this.

So I don’t think we can say “she has no remorse” as much as “she expresses no remorse”.

I’m not saying I’m convinced she feels any, but especially in a society where showing feelings in public is not exactly encouraged, I’m very reluctant to claim I can tell what someone is thinking on that level.

I as in the person typing this. Other people better at reading people are welcome to claim they think it’s more obvious.


#7090

The difference between Caz and his sister is basically:

Piss off Caz and he tries to physically kill you

Piss off Kat, and she (most likely) will try to kill your reputation, your finances, or your friendships.


#7091

I think part of this also is that “piss off” in the sense of “make a choice that makes them angry” is one thing, “piss off” as in “permanently alienate”.

There are several occasions Caius is clearly not happy with a PC’s decision that don’t cross the line into “this one needs to be gotten rid of”. This doesn’t excuse the occasions that do, but what he does and doesn’t think is significant enough is part of “there are things he does”.


#7092

True, but in that situation it wouldn’t have been a bad thing (probably a good thing) if she did express remorse. Lefevbre expresses remorse, but he still played his part in killing Anna because he believed it necessary. Katarina could do the same. Furthermore, when Lefevbre expresses remorse, Katarina all but bats him down. So we don’t know her inner feelings, but we can see her outward expression to a MC and another man who just killed a wife and daughter (each respectively). What does she have to hide from them?

True, but piss her off enough and then she might step up the ante. (Assuming it meets everything we’ve already duscussed for her to murder you.)


#7093

Of course. Caz will just mash that assassinate button, he won’t care about the dishonorable trait. Katarina is smart enough to wait until the plot power gets high enough.

@Rapid
Yeah, that’s true regarding the kenemy stat. I suppose we haven’t done anything that could constitute a complete break yet. I vaguely recall that we may be able to betray or screw over Caz in the future, I’d imagine whatever title that occurs is when that variable may pop up.


#7094

Oh, I have no doubt that we can push Kat to the point where she tries to kill us.

This is one scenario I can think of where she defiantely would be sending Caius and/or hitmen after us:

If she fell in love with us, and we went on the secret mission with her. And then we found out what the mission entailed, and so we called her a monster and left her in tears. The next day, we order our men to let Alexandra go, and basically call her out for her cruelty when she confronts us. We are also mortal enemies with Caz in this scenario as well. And then, seeing an opportunity to help Cunaris cashier Caz, we and Renard tell him what went down at Januzskovil, so that Cunaris both has leverage against the Cazarosta family and can also demonstrate how his dragoons are more noble than the grenadiers, since they don’t shoot innocent girls.

I can even see Kat trying to shoot us herself if we did that.

@Iggles : having her fall in love with us, and then calling her an evil monster when we find out what the secret mission is about, is a pretty significant break. Even more so if we let Alexandra go the next day.