The Dragoon Saga (Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity) - General Discussion



Of course, but you can still die and take losses in general power fantasy games. Just smash that restart button.

And if you DO make it through, you lose what? Some brave souls? Not any named ones though which is what adds some heavy repercussions to the later choices (princess catching and 2nd kharangia).

Now the Forlorn Hope isnt power fantasy to me, because there are still some stuff left unplayed from that (the role of health namely), but a player can lose unnamed men and health in so many other ways. Charging that bridge in SoI for example. I guess power fantasy tropes are just subjective in their definition. Also, like i mentioned, the game is balanced by other losses to the MC (debt, characters lost etc) for the success in the FH to merely be a high water mark in a pretty gritty and not-positive interaction.

All i’m saying is that i think a lot of people pick the forlorn hope because game-wise it is also a better move than not doing it. Just like people detach their platoons to take the bridge, or tell their men to be careful on the road, and so on. I do that too, even though i try not.

But consider if doing the Forlorn Hope also meant your sergeant volunteering and dying for example. I would expect the pick-rate to drop quite a bit.

I think my first post was complaining about the lack of checkpoints in SoI!


Alternatively, you could be @ZoilusthePedantic and go, “Enlisted should feel grateful dying on the pyre of my victory”


I can’t ever bring myself to capture Aleksandra with my Januskovil MC, because it would mean letting Hernandes die. That’s just too high a price.


I usually do Salt Coast or Aetorian MCs. Occasionally a Cunarian.


Is it really?


Your senior NCO is someone you’ve been interacting with on a daily basis for more or less 10 years at that point. From a character perspective, have to be pretty cold to just be willing to throw them away for an objective.

E: From the gameplay perspective, I do want to see the Aleksandra-captured exclusive chapter in Lords, so I will make a save from transfer. It’s very much not my “canon” MC though.


To be fair, from a “character perspective”, the MC would have no idea that trying to capture Alessandra would inevitably lead to his sergeant’s death. We get the privilege of previewing the effects of every choice


True. And I’ve actually argued this both ways before. But I think it’s undeniable that they would know by blocking the charge they’re going to get a lot of people killed. I agree, in universe, the specifics of who’s going to die aren’t clear.


Those where the days
I personally want a iron man mode where you die in masters without legit heir back to SoI.


I particularly want my MC to have a death equal to that of Michael Corleone from the Godfather, abandoned and forgotten in his mansion, reminiscent of the glories of the past, he suddenly feels a pain in the chest, he remembers that he is alone, he closes his eyes and welcomes death.


It would be cool if my MC and Cazarosta were to each fully equip into their knightly armor and sword to go to face one final battle together at Leoniscourt (as I hope my MC can marry Katarina, but herself having been killed by II long ago) against the invading Takarans, that by this point have conquered most of Tierra, only to be killed themselves and their command be slaughtered to a man.

Either that or an equal enough ending but with Antar and Khorobirit being the enemy, and this would even be more tragic because my canon MC had killed Khorobirit’s daughter. In this alternative, Katarina would already had been killed as well along with Lefevbre because they were the head of the operation. Cazarosta and the MC, as Earl of Leaniscourt and Councilor-Militant, go on to fight but are killed along with Lord Renard because of each involvement and/or relation to the SM.

Two of the darker, more tragic potential endings but certainly interesting. Especially as this feels fair for what my MC did at Januszkovil.


I noticed a few things from the stat / demo screen.

The Killer of Innocents has been doing a fairly decent job of paying his debts. With no siblings, he would have started Guns 12000 in debt, so with the interest after his father’s death added on, he’s paid more than 40% of the total debt.

Since Campos is Colour Sergeant, Villanueva must have been killed at Januszkovil (along with Marion, at least half the squadron, and perhaps Blaylock and Sandoral). From the earlier description, I guessed that the Killer of Innocents had ordered his men to kill Lady Aleksandra, but it looks like he tried to capture her (for profit?), and ended up killing her after the Church Hussar charge (although he could have captured her by force). In this case, Garret would be blackmailing him: as Garret sees it, Miradirez sacrificed his men in an attempt to get rich. Not being rich but being blackmailed anyway seems like a relatively bad position from which to start Lords

I was thinking about how Lefebvre would feel about an MC like this (since he likes killing Lady Aleksandra, but doesn’t like the MC’s men being slaughtered), and I came across this passage from Guns, where Lefebvre’s reaction seems to whiplash from positive (even reconciling with an MC who reported him to Hunter) to negative:

Your dragoons are not the only ones picking through the dead. Colonel Lefebvre and Lady Katarina sift through the butcher’s yard, as well. A few dozen paces from the gate, they stop. The grenadier points, and the intelligence agent nods.
You have no doubt as to whom they have just discovered.
“I must congratulate you, sir,” the young Royal Intelligence agent says as she looks down upon the fallen form of a girl not too much younger than herself. “A messy business, but one I would consider well worth the cost; with any luck, we have ended the House of Khorobirit right here.”
Lefebvre nods approvingly. “If that is so, then we may have ensured the destruction of one of Tierra’s worst enemies today.” The Grenadier officer turns to you. “Perhaps I have misjudged you, sir, or perhaps you have learned better in the years since I saw you last,” he says, his countenance graced with the hard slash of a grin.
“The fact that you were responsible for Lady Aleksandra’s death will, of course, remain a state secret,” Lady Katarina adds. “Despite everything, one would not think that Grenadier Square or the more…inflexible of your colleagues would be much pleased by your actions today. We shall have your subordinates sworn to secrecy, and officially, her death shall be ruled an accident of war.” She smiles then, her expression earnest and full of gratitude. “No official blame shall ever come to you for this, I swear it.”
“I had no choice; it was the only chance to save my men.”
“Which only seems to beg an explanation as to why your men had been placed in such a situation in the first place,” Lefebvre demands.
“They were about to effect an escape,” you reply. “I sought to stop them—”
“By throwing a squadron of dismounted cavalry before a massed charge of Church Hussars?” Lefebvre replies incredulously. "Do you think, sir, that the losses you have taken, the men that you have ordered to their deaths might be excused, simply due to the fact that you were able to extricate the remainder?"
You open your mouth to reply, but Lady Katarina is yet quicker with an answer. “No, Colonel, they might be excused by the fact that their sacrifice has allowed us to break the power of the House of Khorobirit, perhaps forever.”
The grenadier officer’s eyes narrow in frustration, but he says nothing.

I noticed that Lady Katarina was not listed as either an enemy or a friend or associate of the Killer of Innocents, despite the boost in relationship that would have come from killing Lady Aleksandra. I expect they have a fairly neutral (or perhaps slightly negative) relationship, which is why she’s not listed. Enemy is a pretty strong word, so I expect that someone with a relationship of 40 wouldn’t qualify as an enemy.

Speaking of enemies, it’s a bit weird to have Lord Renard listed as a known enemy when a disgraced playthrough of Guns never meets Renard. It might make sense for the premade characters, in terms of setting the stage for Lords. I’m inclined to think that it’s better not to mention Renard on the demo screen for a disgraced import, though. If a player has only played the disgraced path and then continues to Lords, they might reasonably ask “Why is this guy I’ve never heard of before now my known enemy?” (Incidentally, I imagine that Lord Renard has no special source of information into what happened at Januszkovil, and thus would only be the enemy of a disgraced MC if that MC were on bad terms with Cunaris/had a very low reputation.)

Hartigan is also listed as a known enemy. I wonder how much that depends on the MC’s relationship with Elson (it’s possible for a disgrace who abandons Cazarosta during the battle to have a high relationship stat with Elson), and how much that depends on the MC’s reaction after Hartigan’s apology. In the moment, Hartigan does not seem to bear much ill will towards an MC who rejects his apology:

The infantry officer nods, accepting your rebuke with the grace of high nobility. “Considering the way which I have heaped scorn upon you, sir, I cannot expect anything more than the same in return,” he says slowly, as if the very words caused him pain. “I shall not trouble you with the matter further, though I hope that one day, you might see fit to change your mind.”


@Cataphrak has already noted this continuity issue and so he’ll attempt to resolve this.

I mentioned (although I never got a follow up) a possible reason for that is that the MC could have admitted the truth. Given the character, Hartigan might be less incline to be friends with that MC who’s admitted he did indeed deserted. In any event, chances are Cataphark will rectify these issues concerning associates.


I think Cata already noted the discrepancy between a disgraced character and earning the enmity of Renard. As for Lady Katarina not appearing, the whole friends and enemy listing is based upon public perception. Your close pairing with Kat isn’t public because RTI wouldn’t want that, while Garret is technically a friend because you are often seen together, even though he’s actually blackmailing you.

EDIT: Damn @MIGSey sniped me.

As for Lefebrve… I have no idea honestly. I don’t think you could honestly even place him on the same ideological axis as the MC as he seems to swerve wildly between ruthlessness and mercy. Or at least he justifies it better than the MC does. A high ruthlessness MC is just a bit of a step down from “BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!”


@Cataphrak would Kian or Takaran art be more like this?



This was the first interactive fiction book I’d ever read and when I read that I had chills and now I have 12 or so different character saves lol


It will probably go to Lefebvre if Lefebvre wants it. He’s donated more and has more influence.

So this game is designed to satisfy those with a humiliation fetish then. Kinky…


I see it less as whiplash and more as the fact that as much as Lefebvre appreciates the fact that the MC did what needed to be done, he is not amused by the fact that the MC sacrificed most of his command to do it.

The Enemy/Associate thresholds are 35 and 65, sos she’s somewhere in between.

Hartigan being Hartigan, he might just be putting on his aristocratic poker face. When men of his station become visibly angry, that’s seen as a failing (see: Cunaris during the briefing before 2nd Kharangia).

Kian art, probably. Takaran art would tend to have thicker lines, if nothing else because they’d be easier to mass-print.


While Lefebvre has donated more, it should still be you If you have fought in the final battle against khorobirit as opposed to Lefebvre who went to capture Anna and her child thus winning yourself yet another medal thus making your publick declaration all the more important. Supposing you play your cards right in Lords, you should have a pretty good shot st it.


Lefebvre is not only wealthier and better connected than the MC, but he’s also “the Hero of Januszkovil” and the king’s “praetorian prefect”, so good luck with that.