The Dragoon Saga (Sabres of Infinity, Guns of Infinity, Lords of Infinity) - General Discussion



Do you see Tierra ever adopting a staff college or military academy? Or do you think that Tierran banebloods and martial education will never be used in the same sentence?


I think all Tierran banebloods have some sort of martial education. If you have a good relationship with your father, it says he taught you how to ride, shoot and fence, all of which are martial attributes. What Tierra is missing in its officer corps is professionalism. You learn how to command on the battlefield without having a grounding in tactics or theory. That’s why it needs a military academy and a staff college. And hopefully we’ll see that. I think it was mentioned once that we could start a military academy, but I don’t quite remember. So don’t hold me to that.


Yeah, but the average player of the typical Battlefield or Call of Duty game is less likely to notice that, because it has been ingrained into their head since childhood. The problem isn’t misogyny, it’s just that they only have a surface level understanding of that time period.

The setting itself was real and historical, how people fought in that setting was not.

Was it? I distinctly remember people complaining about how the weapons did not fit the time period.

Also are you specifically referring to what professional reviewers said about those games, or what the fanbase as a a whole had said? Most major professional reviewers can’t really be trusted, because they usually give triple A games higher scores than they deserve (for many reasons.) And with “the fanbase as a whole” it’s hard to tell if the majority of the fanbase truly believes that, or if it is a vocal minority.

I didn’t know about the zeppelin thing, and I agree that’s ridiculous, but I’m sure there were plenty of other people who played the game and decided that same thing.

The difference is that the Battlefield and the Call of Duty WW games have been presenting themselves as a historical setting, while Wolfenstein presents itself as alternate history. Even if a game isn’t historically accurate, if it presents itself as historical then people still expect it to try and at least make an attempt to maintain that pretense wherever they can (so long as it does not negatively affect the gameplay itself). Because the game still takes place on Europe, with countries and historical figures that we can recognize.

Yes, the combat is not historically accurate, but most people don’t know exactly how infantry combat was fought. They do know other things, however, one of which is the treatment of women during that time period, because the poor treatment of women throughout history is something that schools frequently dwell on.

I do agree that the backlash against the game is going too far, I just believe that claiming this as another example of “gamers being sexist” is doing a disservice to everyone involved (though yes, some people are just being genuinely sexist). Some people do genuinely feel concerned about historical accuracy, or are simply opposed to anything that remotely resembles a modern political message regardless of what that political message actually is.


Entirely seperate track. I have been wondering about a game that puts you in the shoes of a partisan. A normal person in the wake of the chaos that has descended on their country in the wake of an invasion. Having to balance living and surviving, and (possibly) functioning in society with the fact that the occupying government wants you shot or hanged, or worse. Having to simply swallow your pride as your home is quartered in by occupying soldiers who have turned it in a makeshift barracks, eaten all your food and drunk all your [insert regional alcoholic beverage] so that you can later have you and your compatriates slit their throats in their sleep.

It’s an interesting premise and I wonder why no one’s done it.


@Cataphrak since you been working for Luke while now and seem like pretty swell guy. How is he to work for and how close to Historical accurately and plausibility is he aiming for?


Do you mean in Choice of/Hosted Games, or in AAA titles?

If you’re talking about Choice Of/Hosted Games, one of the four protagonists of Divided We Fall ends up becoming a partisan in the second half of the game. Also Choice of Rebels has you play as partisans as well, just not in the modern time period.

If you’re talking about the games industry in general, then yes I agree. They could even incorporate a scavenging/crafting system into it.

Though come to think of it, don’t you basically play as a partisan during the Far Cry games? It does reward you for employing the stealthy approach rather than the loud approach, and a lot of missions are based around ambushing convoys or assassinating targets. (Though it’s nowhere near as depressing as what you described, especially since the protagonist is always an outsider. Also the Far Cry series in general is nowhere near realistic.)


The closer that a AAA game allowed me to play as a partisan, was at the beginning of Mafia 2. And technically, you do not play as one of them, just fight alongside them.


But that was just the first chapter. Iirc it was like a 20-30 minutes mission


Game industry in general. Rebels and Divided We Fall are both good examples of what I’m talking about, even though there’s less “interacting with society as a cover” by comparison.

The Saboteur is a competent third person game, but it doesn’t really feel like you’re a rebel. It feels like you’re an action movie star with “rebel” as a tagline. Far Cry is a lot closer, but the experience is diluted a bit by the fact that you’re an outsider, and not a citizen trying your best to reclaim your home.


Tierra has a couple things “going” for it that should encourage it. First and most significant is that Tierra is not a great power. They will naturally look outside themselves for models to emulate. Both Kian and Takara have formal education systems for their officers.

Two is the RTN. It already has an examination system for its junior officers, and it is the senior service. If the RTA, or an external higher authority, decides that a formal education for officers is required they have a domestic model to look to as well.


The idea that the absence of women is the salient feature of “historical accuracy” isn’t “misogyny” in the classical sense, but it’s certainly not helping women any, is it?

The way I see it is that combat is not historically accurate for a reason: because a lot of people don’t find playing a game where you shoot off into the distance at vague shapes in a shrub somewhere for three hours to be fun. Likewise, a lot of people don’t find playing in an arena where their gender isn’t represented as “fun”. Historically, the people who are more concerned with the former have considered themselves to be more of a core audience for these games than the ones who are concerned with the latter, which is why they’re reacting so poorly.

Is it? We both agree that there are wider issues (involving what people know and are taught about history here), and those are the same institutional issues that underpin a lot of sexist assumptions that go on when referring to the “common knowledge” of a historical setting. Does that necessarily mean they’re terrible, irredeemable people who need to be shot in the sun? No. Does that mean that any “historical accuracy” argument they could make has the intellectual validity of “climate change isn’t real because it snowed yesterday”? Yes.

It’s been a really interesting ride, since we’re trying to make the core gameplay loop reflect “realistic” infantry combat as much as we can, even beyond the writing. Since we are making a game which reflects a segregated, male-only combat infantry arm, I personally feel like it is vitally important to get as many of the other details right as possible.

The idea is to “bend history, not break it”, in the sense that we have primary and secondary sources, and we put our fictional characters in the gaps provided by those sources. If III/7th Infantry Regiment took a hill or a town, then it’s possible that your player character, a company commander in III/7th might be assigned to take that hill or that town as a scenario, but if it was historically second battalion which took that hill? Then that’s outside the scope of our story.

I think the biggest modification to history that I’ve personally made to history is moving a plane crash 2500 metres northwest so that it was in the 7th Infantry’s sector, and not the 504th PIR’s.


How does RTI vet their agents, members, and officers? Lady Katarina spoke on it briefly if you ask her, but she was purposely vague and probably left out very important information or just flat out lied. Maybe the vetting process will have a part to play later in the series for the other branches. Though RTI is a separate entity, so I don’t know. What do you think?


So if the Dragoons were to be disbanded, would the MC be refunded his commission?

And if they are to be amalgamated with another regiment, and the MC ends up with a lower rank, will he be refunded for the difference?


An RTI “background check” would probably be advisable, but I’m not sure the accession process for new agents and junior officers would have any parallels. Certainly literate, numerate and baneblooded would remain standards for entry though.


That was probably just for Katarina’s specific position (which involved associating with many baneblooded officers.) The RTI dossier on Caius states that they don’t necessarily discriminate based on birth, and they have considered recruiting him or at the very least making use of him. So “Baneblood” might not necessarily be a standard for everyone.


Recruiting someone as an asset and recruiting someone as an agent are fairly different. I think Caius was destined for the former.

We also know RTI has several operatives that are baneless like Katarina’s maids and toughs, but the leadership of the RTI I’m fairly certain reflects Tierra’s values and prejudices.


…what if Tierra ends up creating a Secret Police, and RTI puts Caius in charge?


That would be the epitome of “all bad” imho…



I was talking about this yesterday and it makes sense to have at least one of these servant spies embedded in a few lords’ manors and townhouses. They don’t even need to open correspondence and the like. They just can stand at attention as they hear their lord dictate letters. Or pass on who Castermaine is talking to or meeting with.