The Bitter Drop - UPDATED 02-NOV-2016! [WIP][ink] (NSFW)

[grrozny]

It comes really easily to me, for some reason. Might be all the Homestuck I read as a teen,

[TSSL]

This sounds really interesting. I will have to check it out when I’m not about to go to bed.

Is “futch” a combination of “femme” with “butch?” Interesting. Also, what is “galadragriel?”

Thinking about Lev and pronouns… being as you mention “genderfluid” as an approximation, would it fit Lev’s gender if the pronouns in question shift at all? Sometimes feeling more “he,” sometimes more “she,” sometimes more “they” or “fae?”
One thing I do feel with regards to “he,” is where you describe it as “vastly inadequate” in regards to “the mainstream masc gay male community”… might this be a reason to reinforce that someone can be “fem and limp-wristed and… a bit of a wimp” and still be a “he?” (With the disclaimer that it’s entirely up to Lev, of course.) After all, someone can have a feminine identity but still consider himself male and use “he” pronouns if that’s who he feels himself to be. (To a lesser extent than Lev, that would describe me certainly “limp-wristed!”)

While I’ve heard of Polari (just on the Internet), it’s entirely outside of my life experience so I can’t really comment too much on it.

I’ve less to comment on for the others, just because they’re further away from my personal experience so I have less to say of relevance.
Thinking about Mogila, I mean, there have been people I’ve known who have sort of “public” pronouns and say something different for more private purposes, which might be appropriate?
Given the reservations you have with regards to Anzu using “she” with certain people that “People might read this as implication that he’s “of both worlds” due to being intersex or that he’s “really” a girl because he’s an effeminate, flamboyant, prettyboy trans man.” perhaps this is something you could address in that a character could read that very same implication, thus acknowledging it, but Anzu could then explain the reasons behind it and why it’s personally okay? That would seem pretty natural to me. It’s all about personal preference, yes?

@grrozny

Just, the way I was going to do branching would be really difficult in CS.

Out of curiosity, what in particular was the obstacle?

@ParrotWatcher

I’m just a guy who is attracted to other guys instead of girls, and while I do have some effeminate qualities (my love of butterflies would probably count), I would never consider myself in any way female. That said, I do occasionally wonder whether I actually truly see myself as male, or whether I just identify as male because it’s what my body is.

@idonotlikeusernames

Mostly the same here, I would never self-identify as female in any way too, but we’ve all got a “softer” side, nothing to even be embarrassed about.

You can count me in a similar boat to the above. Though in my case I have pretty much determined that I do consider myself feminine in identity, but not actually female. Like, I am a man, but I would not want to be “one of the boys,” so to speak. For a while it was confusing because I felt like I couldn’t really consider myself feminine if I didn’t dress in a girly way or pretty myself up, but when it comes down to it, it’s really just a feeling
I can also relate to wondering if I identify as male just due to my body being that way, also.
Choice of Games may have actually been helpful in regards to noticing that in second person narration I do, indeed, prefer being addressed as “he.”
Anyway, back on topic, this is part of why the roster of characters here sounds so intriguing.

@tw1stedmind

Sounds like this is trying more to be a political statement than a game.

I forgot that it’s a political statement for queer people to exist

More seriously, people like the characters whom Grrozny outlines above do exist, and it’s plenty realistic for all of them to be in the same story; a lot of times (not always) these people will end up drawn together into a community, or even as simply as by virtue of having things in common.

The fact that people are real and exist is reason enough to include them in stories.

[grrozny]

I owe you a proper, long reply when it’s not 8 AM and I’m not emotionally done in by a game about horses (don’t ask,), but you bring up lots of really good points that I 100% wanna discuss.

For the record, I’m very much a limp-wristed, wimpy, queeny kinda gay guy (though I’m a trans guy, so my struggles with it have been kind of different, though similar), so a lot of what I’m writing about with Lev and Anzu has been drawn, directly or indirectly or through inference, from personal experience. So yes, v. much want to talk more about the characters and their pronouns!!

Also, “Galadragriel” is just a silly pun: “Galadriel” and “drag” smushed together.

[grrozny]

Thank you for your kind words! I’m glad so many people are finding Lev and Anzu and their relationship charming. It gives me confidence in my writing skills.

[grrozny]

Triple-posting~

I owe a lot of people thanks just for taking a look and commenting and being so nice and welcoming! Consider this a blanket huge THANK YOU to everyone, I super appreciate all the nice comments and the attention! I’ll individually thank people when I’ve got more brains, I’ve been a bit under the weather the past few days.

[grrozny]

Quadruple-posting, because I’m finally awake enough to give you a proper reply!

Also, for the record, I’ll be referring to Lev/Lyubouv just as “Lev” (shorter to type, har) and as “they”, because I don’t want to make it look like I’m making a judgement call on what’s Lev’s “true” pronoun, as the author and “they” is the most neutral choice.

@TSSL

Is “futch” a combination of “femme” with “butch?” Interesting. Also, what is “galadragriel?”

Yup! “Futch” is a term same-gender-loving women use to describe an aesthetic in their communities that’s halfway between the two or a combination between the two. I picked it up because for some reason, a lot of my friends are lesbians. And as I said above, “Galadragriel” is just a silly pun on how Lev is both feminine in that specific queeny gay boy way and kinda elfin.

@TSSL

Thinking about Lev and pronouns… being as you mention “genderfluid” as an approximation, would it fit Lev’s gender if the pronouns in question shift at all? Sometimes feeling more “he,” sometimes more “she,” sometimes more “they” or “fae?”

Oh yes, that’d totally work! Even using second-person view, I’d have the other characters use different pronouns for Lev, depending on various factors (how they feel that day, what pronouns they asked the character to use, how the character perceives Lev, etc.).

@TSSL

One thing I do feel with regards to “he,” is where you describe it as “vastly inadequate” in regards to “the mainstream masc gay male community”… might this be a reason to reinforce that someone can be “fem and limp-wristed and… a bit of a wimp” and still be a “he?” (With the disclaimer that it’s entirely up to Lev, of course.) After all, someone can have a feminine identity but still consider himself male and use “he” pronouns if that’s who he feels himself to be. (To a lesser extent than Lev, that would describe me certainly “limp-wristed!”)

This is true and it’s something I’ve given a lot of thought to! I think, with the recent cultural shift towards masc4masc “no femmes, be discreet” in the mainstream gay community, it’s important us flamers and queens and limp-wristed types speak up and assert ourselves and the fact that gender-nonconforming gay men are an important part of the gay community and won’t be degendered or chased out. But that’s something I’m going to cover more with Anzu, I think, rather than with Lev, just because of who the characters are.

I think, on the balance of things, Lev will use (and ask people to use) “he” for the most part, because despite being genderfluid/bigender, they also feel a lot of love for and loyalty to the gay community and they do want to be seen specifically as an effeminate gay man … when they feel like a man. But sometimes, they will ask those closer to them to use another pronoun, when they feel more like a girl or more like neither or some amalgam of the two. And this all will definitely be addressed in the game, as they process their gender, talk to close friends (and Anzu) about it, deal with people not understanding and so on.

Mostly, I said “vastly inadequate” RE: “he” not as a commentary on effeminate men using “he” as a whole (I’m a binary man and I’m very, very effeminate) but specifically for Lev’s situation. Which, er. I failed to make clear. Mea culpa.

@TSSL

Thinking about Mogila, I mean, there have been people I’ve known who have sort of “public” pronouns and say something different for more private purposes, which might be appropriate?

This is probably what I’ll do! It’d be an interesting discussion/branch to include, for certain. And like, this is specifically why I want to use second-person POV: so the narrative doesn’t gender the character, only the character themself can have the final say on what their gender and pronoun sitch are and the other characters can be kind and understanding or they can be dicks about it. I could achieve the same thing with a first-person POV, but uh, I don’t like writing first-person POV. It feels weird to me.

@TSSL

Given the reservations you have with regards to Anzu using “she” with certain people that “People might read this as implication that he’s “of both worlds” due to being intersex or that he’s “really” a girl because he’s an effeminate, flamboyant, prettyboy trans man.” perhaps this is something you could address in that a character could read that very same implication, thus acknowledging it, but Anzu could then explain the reasons behind it and why it’s personally okay? That would seem pretty natural to me. It’s all about personal preference, yes?

Yes!! Anzu would definitely address it and I totally plan on having branches that have conflict of that nature and how it’s resolved/not resolved and how Anzu handles it.

@TSSL

Out of curiosity, what in particular was the obstacle?

ChoiceScript is more geared towards stat-based branching and choice-making; I prefer quality-based branching and choice-making. It’s possible to do that in CS, but it’d just be ugly to code. It’s much easier to do in ink.

Thank you for your interest and your kind words and your thoughtful commentary.

[grrozny]

WE HAVE A PARTIAL DEMO WIP!

It’s the first half of one of four parts of the prologue. Okay, it’s part of the first half. There’s still a couple of branches to add. It introduces Anzu, somewhat, and some of the world.

I would love all and any feedback, including proofreading, but mostly I want feedback on:

• how fun it is as a CYOA game
• how good it is as a story and specifically an interactive story
• how good the character writing is
• how coherent it is

Thank you!

[Sashira]

The demo isn’t loading for me - I have a Mac and am using Safari. Is there another combination that might work better, or is it something else?

[grrozny]

Try Firefox or Chrome? It definitely works on MacOS with both of those (at least, it works for me and for a friend).

[Sashira]

Yes, it’s working in Firefox. Thanks!

[ParrotWatcher]

It’s… weird, but in a nice way. It’s very Lovecraftian (and I think I noticed a few references), albeit fortunately sans the racism and sexism. I like Anzu, although I’m wondering why he’s “stocky” if he’s living on the streets…

[grrozny]

@ParrotWatcher

I like Anzu, although I’m wondering why he’s “stocky” if he’s living on the streets…

Shoot, nice catch. He’s kind of a squat, solid build, even as a kid, but he’d be skinny if he’s living on the streets even if his frame is broad.

I wrote all of this in one session today, so there’s a few silly goofs.

[grrozny]

I put a link to the demo in the OP!

I’m hoping I can have an update out today or tomorrow, but I’m making no promises.

[Eiwynn]

Main thing is you continue to work on it. Believe in yourself; the rest of us will follow.

[HannahPS]

Thank you for sharing this! I’ve had a nose through it and enjoy the rich setting and character details. The story flows nicely and I’m keen to see more. The setting almost feels like a character in its own right.

-I enjoy the failure in the alley - kicking the boxes resulting in pain and annoyance results in something fun and characterful rather than a plain old “that doesn’t work, sorry”
-However, the fact that the window is the only thing you get from the alley means that the pace slows down a bit while you’re looking through the alleyway objects - it might be worth adding something useful or shiny that you can gather or discover there, or use to get into the building.
-I’d enjoy being able to try to sneak in through the front door - including the option makes me want to try it out even if it would be stupid! Maybe we could knock and run away, but the wizard doesn’t emerge?

-I’d like to know what Anzu’s twin’s name is, it feels slightly strange having her described as “your twin” while considering myself and the house. Is there a mystery to do with their whereabouts or state of being? I’d love to see more hints about the twin during the intro.
-“You think that’s really cool, even though you also think he’s got some real poor taste, to be a dark wizard and live in a cheery yellow house” - this made me smile!
-The description of the wizard’s bathroom in terms of what Anzu doesn’t have and the way he is opportunistic about the opiates is characterful and evocative
-I’m excited to see more of the characters!

–The setting feels archaic and non-Anglophone, a bit of a late 19th century/early 20th century feel. The worldbuilding fits together nicely, and especially noteworthy is that although it’s heavy on introducing lore and facts about the world, it feels contextually appropriate. ie, the description of the house and the Nizn-wards, although it contains unfamiliar words, makes sense to me because the sentence structure helps to solidify it. It feels cohesive!

-I’m intrigued about the reference to carnivorous plants… I feel that the fantastical setting comes through well across the board in a nicely accessible way.

A few housekeeping notes:
-I played on a Windows laptop using Chrome, playing the 02/11/16 version of the demo
-When I started out with considering things about myself that are simpler, the choice buttons went away and I had to restart, although when I did this after other considerations, they were there as expected.
-When you click “Look in the medicine cabinet” there isn’t a gap before the next paragraph whereas there is a gap for the other times you make a choice.
-Typo: “You and your twin could even get a night a motel”

Overall it’s really promising and it’ll be very cool to see where you go with the project. It’s not like anything I’ve seen before which is extremely exciting!

[grrozny]

I aten’t dead.

Updates coming soon! Including a potential change in format! Exciting developments afoot!!

[Bre]

The link doesn’t work for me, it comes up with page can’t be found.