Jedi. Sith. They are just pieces of a whole. A part of the force. It is the force that is the problem of this universe. As long as it exist no side can truly win. TLJ failed to represent this simple idea. And when overboard with the whole. “Oh no we are doomed, The dark side is about to win”
The problem with jedi is that they are like superheros unwilling to kill their targets. This whole “there is no emotion, there is peace” has gone over their heads.
That’s exactly the distinction I was making. I don’t see any logical plot inconsistencies created by Snoke’s death. There are unanswered questions, of course, but none I can see that reduce the plot to nonsense. What do you reckon I’m missing? What makes his death a “plot hole” – as opposed to just a creative choice you disliked because it wasted a villain for no good reason and skated past questions that you would have liked an answer to?
I do agree, btw, that some of the other disjunctures between TFA and TLJ count as plot holes. But as I said upthread, if I let plot holes ruin Star Wars movies for me, I wouldn’t be a fan even of the original trilogy, let alone the plot-hole festival that is the prequels.
My point is that Snoke had been given basically no meaningful character traits before his death scene. In terms of his characterization, all we had were “visual signifiers of evil” – you know, the cadaverous face and body, the scars, the hazy darkness of the throne room where he does his sinister holographic overlord schtick. You misunderstand if you think I’m arguing that that makes him an abstract concept (a la Mother!, of all things?) rather than a thinly sketched blockbuster movie villain.
Let me take one last stab at articulating my perspective, and then I’ll get off the merry-go-round.
Snoke lived and died as a character sketch rather than a fleshed-out villain. If he’d remained a core villain to the end of the story without ever being better fleshed out (as, for my go-to example, most MCU villains do) that would be poor writing. So yes, fleshing him out in TLJ and Episode 9 would have been one way of writing the saga well. As I said above, I wasn’t expecting them to achieve it. Coming out of TFA, I figured Snoke was just going to be a predictable Palpatine retread.
But fleshing out a sketch isn’t the only option writers have. It’s bad writing to try to flesh out all your sketches; some characters should remain vivid sketches, because they’re secondary or tertiary characters in a story focused on someone else. Black Panther, for top-of-my-head example, has a sketch-villain in Ulysses Klaue whose role in the story is to set up the much more compelling Killmonger.
We all came into TLJ expecting it to begin fleshing Snoke out, revealing his mysteries, etc. Instead, the authors chose the other route – leaving Snoke forever as a sketch, a crucial figure in Kylo Ren’s backstory and development, rather than a character to be explored in depth. (At least for those who, like me, don’t plan to read the novelizations and other books that will inevitably try to fill in every gap in the canon.) I don’t think that was badly done at all.
And as I already said above, I think it’s more than just a surprise for surprise’s sake. Of couse, if you find Kylo uninteresting (as many do), then you’re less likely to appreciate how it develops him and brings him front and center. But I think Kylo’s a timely villain, and more interesting (in his humanity, his history, his relationships) than Snoke was ever likely to be.
As for credible threat, Kylo comes to the verge of winning Rey over, in that moment where Snoke’s death has opened up the heady possibility of changing the rules. Forget the megalomaniacs with planet-killing space stations: every Star Wars movie is ultimately about those stakes – about whether and how the Light Side can be seduced to the Dark Side. That’s the most important ground where battles for the galaxy are lost (in the prequels) or won (in the originals). And by offering a “third way” Kylo almost won it, in a markedly different way from either the mythic father-son dynamic of the OT or the woodenly implausible romantic love of the PT. What else can I say? I think it’s great.
I honestly think it would be much more appealing to me if Rey took this offer. Clearly both sides of the Force are very flawed and this constant battle for supremacy of light and dark just leads to galactic wide conflict. Balance is needed. I honestly would prefer if Kylo Ren turned the First Order into something like Jagged Fel’s Empire in the EU. Still Imperials but who are less “big bad” and more “lawful neutral” in a way, who trained grey Jedi which employed both light and dark sides of the force and worked with others when it was needed. But it seems to me that Kylo kind of offered a third choice to form something new and Rey rejected it leading to Kylo reverting back to “big bad” mode. I think they missed a big opportunity in this.
It was honestly one of the few instances I was truly hoping they would subvert my expectations and they did not.
Whoa, tap the brakes there. How is Klaue uninteresting compared to Killmonger? I like BP’s big bad well enough, but a grumpy Laertes in no way compares to a cheerful, candy-munching, Soundcloud-pimping merc wielding an arm cannon. I rue that they sacrificed such an entertaining character just to provide a slapdash motivation to explain a simple switch of allegiances.
But then we would not have a story. Would we. Since star wars movies are so dependent on the whole light and dark thing. personalty think smoke was a bad villain in the first movie and pathetic in the second. They should have just established Rey more and given depth to Kylo. Have him be the vililian from the start. Or they could have maybe gone with the whole snoke is darth plagious theory.
I have to agree with this video. Disney did f up.
I know. I just wish we could go more in depth than dark vs. light, good vs. evil, scary bad guy with red lightsaber vs. nice good guy with blue lightsaber (or green). I understand how many people just want a good vs. evil story in their Star Wars. A good guy to root for and a bad guy to hate (or love to hate with regards to people like Darth Vader). But I think by exploring deeper into the factions and their motivations you can get a much more compelling story.
Perhaps a movie about the motivations of a Stormtrooper like TK-462 who saw the Rebels rob his family farm and kill his sister (albeit by accident with the sister) and now sees the Rebels as the bad guys. Or perhaps a movie going into why Separatist worlds attempted succession from the Republic (its actually quite an interesting read).
Either way, while I am very hesitant about Episode 9, I retain hope to see something more interesting in the next trilogy. And maybe in the side movies. Lets just hope Ewan McGregor comes back for the Obi-Wan movie.
He was one of the more enjoyable parts about the prequels. If someone could just give him a good script. He could exell even more as a character.
And thats why my fellow patriot. I can play KOTOR2 over and over again like a highly drugged maniac ready to conquer the world,
That game never stops amazing me, Every time. Kreia is arguably one if not the best star wars villain. She represents everything i hate about star wars concepts. That universe should be f’ing happy that i dont exist in it. I would Finnish what she started
There are so many other stories to explore. A Revan or a Mandalorian moive would be awesome. Dam. They should have done thrawn after AL it does come after ROTJ. Or how about the Qel-Droma brothers, the fall of Exar Kun, and the accidental hyperspace jump that causes the Great Sith War in the first place. Soo much material to go over. All of it lost. Dam you Disney.
At least they are developing a Mandalore tv show. High hopes its going to be a worthy watch.
I totally agree. He is an amazing actor. His scenes in the prequels are some of the best and I think he could really excel in a movie about Obi-Wan.
Oh man I love KOTOR, both 1 and 2. Kreia was awesome in it. Pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy of both sides. They really nailed it with her.
On one hand, I would want to see them make movies about those topics. But on the other hand, I feel like such topics have such loyal fanbases and deep/rich lore attached to them that they would need a very good writer and actors to give it justice and I’m not sure if Disney would do it justice. I would rather have no Revan movie than a bad Revan movie. Same with Thrawn. If the stars aligned and they made it perfect a movie about such things would be probably one of my favorite movies of all time. But like I said, a lot needs to go right, and so far a lot is going wrong (at least in my eyes) with Disney’s control of the franchise. And as…goofy perhaps as some of the EU is, getting rid of nearly all of it, even that which doesn’t contradict the new trilogy, was a mistake I think.
I really hope its good as well. Like, really really hope haha.
Honestly. Kevin Fiege needs to be fired from Marvel and put in charge of Star wars.After avengers 4, People like him are what these movies needs. Someone who loves the material.
The Eu Luke is somewhat the same as the cannon. But he holds resolute, and stands firm even when everyone around him disagrees.Even when he is afraid of his own powers. And the legacy he made. He dosent run away like the cannon version.He doesn’t run away when things get tough. He doesn’t hide from the Galaxy as a hermit, tortured by past failures and failing to intervene in current struggles.
He’s a principled, considerate, capable and powerful being, THE MOST POWERFUL BEING.At least in the EU. Though that can be debated. He has humanity and the optimism that everyone can be a force for good. Disney may have canceled the Eu. But they should not have canceled Lukes character traits.
I don’t think Rey rejected the idea, but she pointed out that it couldn’t grow out of the First Order. Space Nazis aren’t “something new,” and if Kylo really meant to get beyond the old dichotomies, he’d need to walk away from the Vader/ Palpatine imitation game.
He could have. With Snoke dead, there was nothing stopping him. But unlike Vader, whose final reconciliation with Luke was made easy by the fact that he was already dying, Kylo would have actually had to change to be redeemed. Just betraying your evil mentor isn’t enough, if you survive that process like Kylo did.
So the hints and hopes of the first half of TLJ, that Mr Shirtless Semi-Sensitive Nazi might be redeemed, lead up to this moment. And he chooses to stay dark, because that’s who he (mostly) wants to be. Some part of him clearly does wants to break free of the dichotomies that destroyed his family…but the dark side is also what’s made him feel powerful, and at the end of the day he’s not about to let that go.
While I’d be happy to see them play more with dark/light third ways, there’s no way for the First Order to turn into that, and I think they made the right call for Kylo and Rey in this one.
@hustlertwo, Klaue was totally entertaining – which is a step up on MCU villains like the ones played by Christopher Eccleston, Mads Mikkelsen, and Lee Pace, whose character names I can’t remember – but Killmonger had substance like no other MCU villain. I’d have enjoyed seeing Klaue recur in other movies, but if he was going to go down, I’m glad it was to Killmonger.
Is Kylo really a space Nazi though? What does he really want at this point. Galactic domination? Idk. The only thing he really wanted before this is freedom from Snoke and Huck’s agenda. Now he wants revenge on Rey for refusing him…perhaps? If they are smart (hoping against hope) he wants more dark side power (for its own sake really). Rey will be forced to confront his pursuit of that power because he will do so with reckless abandon, but not with any specific intent for galactic domination I don’t think.
Of further interest perhaps is that the old Jedi rules won’t be enough to beat him once he is strong enough and Rey will have to make hard choices to win.
Whatever Kylo wants in his heart of hearts, when offered the chance, he wasn’t willing to walk away from his armada and goose-stepping army to get it. I think that’s indicative of wanting domination on some reasonably large scale, no?
I join you in hoping hard choices are involved in Episode 9.
Well judging by his exact quote of:
" It’s time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels… Let it all die. Rey, I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy. "
I’d say he would need the First Order under his command to bring an end to the Rebels and would use the First Order as his tool of bringing a “new order” to the galaxy. After all, leaving the First Order doesn’t stop them from existing, they would just be “Galactic Empire 2.0” under General Hux. If he is Supreme Leader he can create reformations and shape the First Order in the way he envisions. If I was in his place, I certainly wouldn’t get rid of the most valuable tool to accomplish my goal.
This is all assuming he was telling the truth about bringing about something new however.
Didn’t Kylo massacre all Jedis just because he thought Luke was gonna kill him? I mean talk about going overboard…Whatever his ideas of “new order” would be, I’d be doubtful they anything good…
Though it’s been a long time since I last saw the movie and I could misremember some things…
This fan-film is better than the entirety of the last jedi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey68aMOV9gc
I would disagree about Mads, I rather enjoyed his villain. Definitely true about Pace and Eccleston; the former overacted too much by half, and the other faded into the background so much that (appropriate enough for a dark elf) you can barely even tell he was there at all. Very sad mishandling of quality actors.
I know we’re veering off topic, but I have not understood the people that consider Killmonger the best MCU villain. When you come right down to it, how is he all that different than Pace’s Ronan? My father was killed, so I will subjugate the people responsible and turn my personal vendetta into a global one. The only two differences is that Killmonger gets wayyyyy more screen time to flesh him out, and that his menace is a good deal more subdued than the piemaker’s penchant for growl-screaming. Jordan’s a great actor, even if he had more to work with in Creed than BP. He elevated a fairly generic villain. But there’s still less there than a Loki or Thanos. I would also say Ultron, but only the Ultron from the first two-thirds of his movie, before they throw motivation out the window and turn him into a cartoon supervillain.
Again, The Last Jedi is the 8th episode in an ongoing “Star Wars Saga,” not a stand alone film. It would make no sense as a stand alone film, but it also makes no sense in its actual context. How did we get to this state of affairs from where we had previously been in the first place? How did someone so inept as to get killed in the way Snoke did get to his position? How is it that someone with as much power as Snoke clearly displayed is so inept as to have been killed off in such a way but only at that particular point and never before? Where the crap did that red guy who was fighting Rey’s second knife go? Like seriosuly, it was there one second, then gone the next, without even a cut. It literally just vanished into thin air when he needed it most. Were they seriously that lazy while making the most iconic scene of the movie? Ok those last few are kinda tangential You can’t excuse the production values of a 2017 Disney Blockbuster with those of the original trilogy.
His face wasn’t just old or spoopy, it was visibly deformed by some apparent severe injury in a way we’ve never seen in a Star Wars character. The emperor just looked old and evil. Snoke looked fucked up. He also demonstrated immense power. The ability to telepathically toss people around with almost no effort, and create forced telepathic connections between two distant people. He orchestrated the entire final scene up until the point of his death. You can say you don’t see him as an abstract concept, but if you continue to treat him as one I can’t very well believe you. The reference is intentional. You’re treating Snoke as a non-literal object. One that can exist purely to serve some metaphorical purpose and then be dropped without consequence, but that’s not what he is, because that’s not what kind of story Star Wars is. He is literally the supreme leader of the First Order and an exceptionally powerful force user. He is literally a guy with a really severely disfigured face who apparently has some sort of grudge against Luke Skywalker. He isn’t just a metaphor for the old evil that can be casually dropped to signify the rise of the new. He is new as far as we know. Alternatively you are perfectly aware of all this and still think writing a character into an established story that due to the way you’ve written them should obviously have a massive effect on that story and then not having that character have any meaningful effect on that story and then abruptly killing them off in a nonsensical way because you decided to replace them with another character who you’ve bothered to develop more is good writing. It’s not. I’m not sure how to convince you of that though.
If you have no faith in their ability to make Snoke a character worth keeping around long enough to keep from turning him into nothing but a plot hole why on earth would you have any faith that they wouldn’t do the same exact thing to Kylo after he basically just killed him off to replace him? Replacing bad writing with bad writing isn’t good writing.
Except that Killmonger is a completely different type of villain from Klaue. Klaue is a charismatic and funny guy who just out for money and is completely open with himself about that. Killmonger is an ideological terrorist who is taking power to achieve a goal. Klaue is a generic fun villain with a bit of edge. Killmonger is a villain because he remorselessly (and at times gleefully) murders anyone who is remotely inconvenient to him and has a complete disregard for the wanton destruction and misery he causes in pursuit of his poorly thought out ideals. Kylo is just a prettier proto-Snoke without the mystery who we’re meant to think could maybe turn good again through the power of boners… because he’s pretty.
They chose to replace him with a more marketable antagonist. Because he’s prettier, and subverts expectations
Yeah, sure, I get it. Kylo can be interpreted as a alt-right incel allegory and is thus a more trendy villain than Snoke. He also looks like Adam Driver, so he appeals to heterosexual women who fantasize about saving the abusive bad boy with anger issues from himself. He’s got a lot of checkboxes marked for appeal. Cynical marketing doesn’t make a good story. Well, I hadn’t really thought of it this way until now so you have at least convinced me that it was about more than just subverting expectations.
This is not making it look better… So they did the same thing as the prequels, only less poorly, and earlier, with a few cosmetic differences. I can’t fathom how that’s supposed to make anything better except for the aforementioned “Subverting Expectations!” thing. Now they’ve got a whole movie where the sides are already determined for a final battle, except they have to somehow explain or handwave how the resistance will be able to do ANYTHING with 12 people on the Millennium Falcon. Still, they don’t seem to have any problem hand waving. If only they were actually Jedi it would actually work.
Essentially, your defense boils down to a self contradictory argument that it was ok for them to do something that was bad writing to open up the possibility for something that would have been really good writing if they hadn’t ended up doing nothing with it, instead of just doing something that would be good writing, because you didn’t have any faith in them to do something that would be good writing… and let’s not think about the repercussions of any of this for either past or future stories.
@hustlertwo Killmonger’s vendetta made direct social commentary on real world issues. Ronan was just what you described.
Welp, we clearly appreciate different things in movies (and in writing) and I don’t think going around the wheel a few more times is going to make that any clearer than it is already. The last words are yours.
What do you actually appreciate in movies? You haven’t actually made that particularly clear. I can try to extrapolate it from the conversation, but then I just end up with this seemingly arbitrary tangled mass of contradictions. You’re ok with it writing out characters like they’re figurative, but insist that you don’t view them as metaphorical, but your excuse for them writing out those characters is that they’re “just a collection of signifiers”… hence, metaphorical. You think it’s great that they opened the door to do something totally new regardless of all other considerations, but ignore the fact that they immediately back tracked on this and reset to basically the status quo but with younger prettier people.
I mean, TLJ has pretty much exactly the same plot as TESB with some slight variations. It’s super easy to describe it in a way that would make it indistinguishable from TESB just by using gender neutral pronouns.
You’ve got the Jedi Protagonist off trying to train with a reluctant hermetical master who eventually agrees. While training she enters a place of darkness seeking answers and finds a confusing vision related to her past. She sees visions while training that convince her to go and confront the main antagonist before completing her training. She fails to defeat him, he gives her a shocking reveal about her parentage and tempts her to join him and rule the galaxy together. She refuses, and flees to escape after being reunited with her friends on the Millennium Falcon.
The other characters are all fleeing the the bad guys after evacuating their base. They get into various ultimately meaningless hijinks during the pursuit and eventually go to a luxurious planet to get the help of a questionable ally who eventually betrays them, resulting in them being trapped and needing to be rescued, after which they reunite with the Jedi protagonist and escape on the Millennium Falcon.
Sure there are differences, especially in the pursuit arch, but most of them are ultimately meaningless, or just nonsensical.
