Star Wars


I’ve been thinking about TLJ and fan service, looking back at how RO’s Vader scenes indulged in what would delight fans while Episode 8 notably refused to indulge likewise with Luke in favour of going the opposite route to tell its own message - but what is it trying to say?

Rewatching RotS I’m having fun with the action and inevitable tragedy of Anakin Skywalker - looking back at the Last Jedi (the parts that interest me: Snoke, Kylo, Rey and Luke) I had fun watching the throne room fight but felt underwhelmed with Luke’s final act to give the Resistance hope against the First Order.

It just felt… meh, like he’d already done this before when he blew up the Death Star and later took down the Emperor and Vader.


I watched Solo this week. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I think it’s my favorite since RotJ.

The whole droid liberation character/plot was weak/problematic. And it was clearly setting up for sequels that aren’t going to happen. It wasn’t great, but it didn’t make me dislike it the way parts of TLJ and Rogue One did.


It was a good film just a bad Han Solo film. I thought Aiden didn’t do great at portraying Han. Also HATED how they turned his name into something random empire officer no 567 came up with. If it wasn’t his original name fine but they could have at least made it his choice.


Oooh that makes me excited! I wanted to enjoy it but then got scared off trying it by some of the responses I heard but now I’m going to give it a shot!


I think it’s likely that they will use elements spinning out of Solo, just have them pop up elsewhere like within the Disney Streaming shows. I still think that a Boba Fett vs Maul mini series would be a great idea for Disney+.

And definitely watch Solo, it’s a great movie with a decent cast.


You assumed it would’t be better than something done previously, so it’s good they just replaced it with a gaping plot hole… This reasoning is just unfathomable to me. Do other people who liked the film think like this too? “Well it might not be the best thing ever so let’s just get rid of it and replace it with nothing.” I mean… it does go a way to explain how Bethesda was able to keep a reputation as a good game company for so long I guess.

I mean, Rey is basically a generic chosen one whose only unusual quality is being being female… Hell, according to Kylo she’s literally just the tool of fate. She only has her power because the force is some sort of sociopathic perpetual war machine that constantly fuels the conflict between light and dark by literally just creating powerful force users of one side out of nowhere to counter powerful users of the other if one side gains an advantage. Should we kill her off at the beginning of the next movie with no explanation or closure?


All I really would have needed to be content with how Snoke was handled in general would be a simple line explaining why he is so powerful. I can think of a few off the top of my head such as a former Jedi Master injured in Order 66 and fell to the Dark Side while trying to learn techniques to fight Vader, or maybe he wound up on Korriban after the Clone Wars and was taught the secrets of the Sith by one of the buried Sith Lords spirits kind of like Darth Krayt in the EU. Something had to be said about why this man can throw around Rey who has shown to be extremely capable in the Force like she’s a minor nuisance and can command Kylo Ren who we are told is very capable.

Now I’m sure they will explain something in the books but honestly that kind of sucks. The books should be add ons to the movies and lore, not explaining main plot points. Its like the difference between a DLC in a game that adds a whole new area, lore, and quests that tie in with the main story, and a DLC that just unlocks quests that were already part of a game but locked behind a paywall.

Either way its something I believed could have, and should have, been handled a bit better then this. While I haven’t been very secretive about my great dislike of TLJ, and to a lesser extent my dislike of TFA, I want Star Wars to succeed. It has a very special place in my life even today and to see the path its going on, at least in my eyes, is somewhat painful to watch. But to each their own I suppose. I’m not trying to change minds, just to share my thoughts.


Oh god, what if that was the plan all along? Make plot points into DLC for movies… The video game industry out profits movies by a significant margin, in no small part thanks to their increasingly shady and manipulative business practices… it’d make perfect sense for Disney of all companies to want to get in on that pie. They already sort of tested the waters with something like this with the Marvel TV shows, though they never really went all in… Now Disney is cancelling everything to bring it back under their direct control with their own personal “Another Specialized Streaming Service That No One Wants Because We Already Have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and Possible CrunchyRoll” They release some fantastic side content that fulfills everyone’s wishes for explaining Snoke’s history.


No chance. If that was their game they’d have done it already with the MCU.


For a better example of franchises putting plot points into books and leaving fans confused look at Halo 5. Master Chief has for four games been known as the last SPARTAN II, through sheer luck he survived the impossible and is the last of his breed. Until Halo 5 when it turns out his original team is alive and well after all, contradicting the old books and lore. How are they alive and reunited with Chief you ask? Well if you want to find that out you have to read the Halo comic Escalation, books 8-10 (Or read on the internet if you don’t want to give 343 money for that). That left quite a few fans confused and scratching their heads and quite upset. I don’t want to see that happening to Star Wars.


Halo one to two did the exact same thing. As did Halo 2 to 3… Halo 1 you’re lost in space. Halo 2 you start out an an awards ceremony. Halo 2 ends with you “Finishing this fight” except then in Halo three you open about the deorbit in nothing but your suit. See, games have already proven it can be done. Disney is Disney. They know they can get away with pretty much anything as long as they maintain their facade.


True, but the whole “You’re the last SPARTAN, just kidding.” has always been more of a spit in the face to me. The Chief could have possibly (although very unlikely) found ways to escape those other things, but we are told numerous times that the Chief is the last SPARTAN II around. I think changing that was a very bad call. But overall I was just trying to give a bit of a clearer example of why hiding major plot points behind book sales isn’t a good practice. It leads to people being confused and upset and that is never a good thing. But I’m getting a bit of topic. My apologies.


Anyone here checked out the debut instalment of the new live action Vader fan film series from SW Theory?

Its awesome and gotten a lot of praise on Youtube, a shining example of the prosumer mindset fostered by the Star Wars community.

Its even gotten coverage from sites including Comic Book and Cinemablend which is quite notable for a non-profit fanmade production.


I don’t agree that it leaves a plot hole. The plot doesn’t need a Snoke origin story to make sense. It doesn’t need Snoke as a villain at all to make sense.

It is (and here I imagine we disagree) a better movie for having used Snoke as a stepping stone in developing its real big bad, Kylo Ren, the last Skywalker. The surprises in how it did that are what I think sets it apart from plenty of other, less original movies (including notably TFA).

I’m not sure you’ll ever be persuaded that a reasonable person could like TLJ, but them’s my thoughts…


After watching TFA and TLJ again. I think the big issue is that I’m thinking we’ve had this trilogy too early.

I believe Disney should have done a trilogy which showed Luke’s attempt at restoring the Jedi and the rise of the First order as well as the fall of the new Jedi temple.

I think it would help a lot of people who has problems with.

Luke goes from positive with a belief he can save someone who has committed atrocities to thinking of killing his nephew.

Han goes from finally accepting responsibility to becoming a dead beat dad.

Leia goes from being the Princess of the Rebellion to a General of the Resistance (although this follows on better than previous two in these films)

It also would have gone some way in explaining how the Jedi could become a myth in the short time considering a Jedi had helped end the Empire and went on to open a Jedi temple.

And help explain where the hell the FO came from to have overtaken the New Republic so quickly. (Although you can find out how in books it would have been nice to see it in film too).


I know lots of otherwise reasonable people who hold unreasonable views. Most people seem to be pretty good at compartmentalizing information in order to sustain a convenient double standard.

Whether or not the plot needed Snoke isn’t relevent. They had Snoke. He was a major player whose existence needed explanation within the larger context of the world they were building on. They decided they wanted to get rid of him so they did so… Without any consideration for anything else besides sticking to the only consistent “theme” in the movie, that of subverting expectations. Being unexpected doesn’t make something good though. If it did Neil Breen would have a positive reputation. Without the larger context of the world Star Wars is no longer a cohesive fictional universe for story telling. It’s nothing more than a recognizable brand name for Disney to toss onto various things in a blatantly cynical attempt to use nostalgia to emotionally manipulate you into buying them.

They didn’t need Rose either, and I’d be just as pissed if they’d randomly killed her off as well, and they introduced her right in this episode, but we still ended up knowing more about her than Snoke, and she isn’t a powerful sith lord whose existence should have mattered previously, and whose face is super fucked up in a way that says “I have a history” … She’s just a cute and idealistic engineer with a dead sister who the writers seem to have given up on trying to give a coherent purpose in the last several minutes of the film.

Actually Holdo kind of has the reverse issue to Snoke. They introduce her out of nowhere and tell, not show us that she’s hot shit. They then do nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that. Instead showing an incompetent leader who withholds information from senior officers out of spite and breeds distrust and insubordination, then can’t even muster the presence of mind to do her final sacrifice soon enough to save almost anyone at all. But then the characters act like she’s some sort of hero.

So they have this one character who was obviously important and clearly demonstrated it, killed off unceremoniously without any closure, and then another character who is said to be important but doesn’t demonstrate it at all except in how her incompetence leads to the majority of the problems that happen in the movie, then she gets a heroic sacrifice scene at the end… Which directly contradicts the message they’re supposedly trying to deliver in the following scene in the movie… But you know… all that sure subverts expectations!


It’s relevant to whether or not his death deserves the label “plot hole” that you were slinging around earlier. I agree it’s not relevant to the other reasons you disliked his death.

You see him as a mystery that needed explaining. I see him as a set of visual signifiers of EEEVIL which hadn’t yet been backed up by anything interesting (cf. Darth Maul). Most blockbuster movies these days fail to make their villains interesting, and as I said, I didn’t have particularly high expectations for Snoke on this front.

On consideration, I’m happy to concede that they could conceivably have found something to do with Snoke’s story that made him interesting (against what I too loosely said above, that Snoke would never have been as interesting as Palpatine). They had a couple of movies to work with. If they’d managed it, that would also have been fine by me.

But by killing him they took Kylo in a much more interesting direction than he’d been headed in (and Kylo was already much the more interesting of the two, just as Vader was always a more interesting character than Palpatine). Snoke’s death opens up the heady possibility of Kylo and Rey walking away from the Jedi-Sith dichotomy, which ultimately doesn’t happen because Kylo remains who he is – with his character revealed so much more clearly when he’s the one calling the shots. All of that stuff could only happen with Snoke dying. They’re what made his surprisingly early death more interesting than e.g. Darth Maul’s, and why I disagree that it’s merely subversion for subversion’s sake.

As a decades-long GoT fan, I don’t think the unceremonious killing-off of powerful characters (including e.g. the Book One protagonist) is a bad thing. If the TLJ team had decided to kill off Rey, or Rose, or Finn, I’d have judged the effectiveness of that unexpected choice by the impact it had on the other characters/plot. I’m satisfied with Snoke’s story ultimately being an aspect of Kylo’s. I don’t need to know his backstory, any more than I need to know a dozen other worldbuilding details.


A plot hole isn’t just anything that makes a story unsatisfying. It’s specifically an inconsistency in the plot that creates a logical “hole.” The Last Jedi is not a stand alone story. It’s literally the eighth episode in an ongoing “Star Wars Saga”… that’s what it’s marketed as, that’s what it literally is. Hell, it’s the direct sequel to a recently released movie that restarted this saga after it lay dormant for years, and it doesn’t even do a good job of being that with how casually it generates plot holes between the two movies. At the very least if they intended for it to be something different then it’s unethical for them to charge us money for what they were pretending it was.

Believing he’s just an abstract collection of concepts and not a character in the movie because you don’t like his character traits doesn’t magically make it so. Star Wars isn’t Mother. It’s Star Wars. I feel like that shouldn’t need to be said.

So then why do you keep so steadfastly defending them doing it so poorly?

So Snoke’s death is good because it lets Kylo potentially be more interesting… It opens up the exciting possibility of them changing the dynamic… but then they immediately closes it. Now the dynamic is reinforced with Kylo simply taking the place of Snoke, but as a much less credible threat, for whom we still don’t know anything about how he actually came to be this way and Rey taking the place of the Luke but without any interesting flaws, character quirks, or background details. Kylo being in charge didn’t reveal anything about him. We already knew he was an emotionally unstable Darth Vader fanboy who rather blatantly mirrors aspects of alt right nerd culture. Now he’s just doing it with more power. Darth Maul wasn’t a powerful leader. He was in hiding. Not affecting the galaxy at large. He lived in obscurity and died in obscurity, and he first appeared and then disappeared at the earliest part of the timeline. Again, the comparison seems to indicate you’re trying to think of all of these characters as nothing more than abstract collections of traits rather than characters in a story set in a fictional universe. They subverted expectations in a way that opened up the possibility for a huge change, but then they immediately closed it off again and reestablished the status quo. If anything that only supports the idea that it was done purely for the sake of subversion.

I assume you’re talking about A Song of Ice and Fire since GoT the TV show has existed for seven years and saying you were only a fan of the first book would just be bizarre… You say you’re judging Snoke’s death based on the impact it had on other characters/plot but the effect it had is to open a plot hole within the larger story outside of the individual movie itself… and not much else. It could potentially lead to something unique where Kylo in his incompetence ends up destroying the First Order, but this is Disney we’re talking about. They have more movies to make in the future. They aren’t going to change anything meaningfully. And when considering the authorial intend on this story you can’t just take every individual part of it alone, but have to take it all together as a whole. When viewed as a whole it shows consistent decisions that can most reasonably be explained as simply doing things for the sake of subverting expectations.


Does anyone think its time to move on from the whole "oh look. Its a death star. Lets destroy it. " and “here comes the evil empire. Ready to purge the galaxy.” I dont want to see these plots in another star wars trilogy.



I especially hate it when , If there is a Sith warriors … it was going to be "Oh… we are dooooommm !!! "

At least in defense of the Jedi plotline, many Jedi warriors, including those prominent and legendary one was managed to be kill by clone warriors but Sith ??? No way a common soldiers could kill any of them , if you don’t have a Jedi in your rank, prepare to be slaughtered … :-):joy: