Star Wars


#489

You know that stormtrooper was Daniel Craig, right? So I’m joking from a story standpoint (not that it matters, mindjacking anyone with literally zero clue on how do it was pretty absurd), but it literally was James Bond.


#490

I’d love to have known how it would have played out if Qui Gon hadn’t been killed by Darth Maul and had been the one training Anakin.


#491

I have to point out Rey was good at using a staff weapon. A lightsaber isn’t a staff the range and how it handles would be different. To be honest I had hoped she would have got a double bladed one as that would have made more sense.

Finn had actual weapon training which although not mentioned in film the existence of Vibroblades in the universe makes it more likely that said training could have featured melee weapons.


#492

To be fair numerous sources have stated that the trip to Cloud City took anywhere from weeks to months due to the Falcons busted hyperdrive. Add to that the training Luke had under Obi-Wan and practical experience in war as well as a basic understanding of the force I’d say its plausible that he would be somewhat proficient in its use. Even then he had another year of training on his own in between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi and yet he still lost against Vader until he gave in to his anger.

I’m not really sure what you mean by making no sense? The Rebels were attempting to dig in and defend giving the majority of their comrades time to escape. The fortifications, airspeeders, and defenses were all distractions to buy time. As for the Empire they were attempting to blockade any Rebel escape with their Star Destroyers while using their heavy armor to crush resistance along the base perimeter so the Snow Troopers and Vader could clear out the base. It made sense to me.

Agreed here. That was ridiculous. But then again thats just to keep the story going.

Well with the droids, protocol and astromech droids are very common. I doubt many people could recognize the droids by sight alone unless they spent a significant time around those specific droids. As for Luke and Leia, well Luke makes more sense than Leia. Tatooine was controlled by the Hutts and the Empire pretty much avoided that planet. Add to that the fact that moisture farmers are such a spread out and low priority to the Imperials, plus the fact Obi-Wan was actively watching over Luke, I’d say he was pretty safe from harm or detection.


#493

“Your wife died you killed her and your children died with her.”

Bail organa: My wife just had a baby naming her Leia
Vader: I don’t know or care enough about your life to doubt that story

Lars: Anakin when are you coming to visit we’ve got a new-
Vader: lose this number


#494

This video sums up my feeling about the movie.

Remember, plot twist is good, but that doesn’t mean you can use it for every piece of plot points. That’s just lazy writing


#495

I never said I wanted it to be the end of the story. I said they depicted Luke as the opposite of what he was at the end of ROTJ. That is completely unrelated to whether or not ROTJ was the last movie in the chronology. They basically expect us to accept that he went backwards from ROTJ and went from someone who was able to restrain himself from kiling the Dark Lord of the Sith while his life was being actively threatened, to someone who’d draw, activate, and raise his Lightsaber against his own nephew and student because he saw some darkness in him. TLJ put about as much time into showing this fall as it took to say it happened.


#496

I agree it was too sudden. I think all the story stepping stones so to speak are there to get Anakin over to the dark side, I just think the flaw was putting it all in one movie, or not starting the movie with him a little further down the road. Between the Jedi Order inadvertently pushing him in that direction and Palpatine playing with him, and what he had at stake, it makes absolutely sense to me that Anakin takes the path he does and how he takes it. They have everything to make it work, except time.

Killing the children was such a huge act of evil, there should have been a few more ‘smaller’ ones to lead up to it outside of just saving Palpatine from Windu.

I do think the Jedi Order and their forcing their jedi down a path of ‘no personal connections’ (even though you start training to be a jedi at an age that is WAY too young to make that choice) and essentially not being a very open place to talk about your feelings (seriously Yoda? A nine year old has fear and you’re telling him how it can lead to suffering?) and a lot about their teachings plays a huge part in opening Anakin up to be conducive to Palpatine and I don’t think Obi Wan or Yoda ever learn this lesson or accept the role the Order played in the Dark Side coming into power. They constantly try to get Luke to follow the same path, telling him to ignore his friends’ plight, lying to him about his family with no intention of setting the record straight if Vader hadn’t, and then trying to persuade Luke that is only option is killing Vader and that Anakin can’t possibly be saved from the dark side. I don’t think they have ever learned from their mistakes.

Rejecting a lot of the lessons of the Jedi Order is Luke was able to save Anakin who in turn was finally able to kill the Sith Lord (and possibly be bring balance to the force. What 'bringing balance to the force means, was always left a bit fuzzy).


#497

You could see it that way. Or you could take it as evidence that we’ve already swallowed the idea of a desert-raised force-prodigy accomplishing a lot with sweet-Fanny-Adams for training, so maybe it shouldn’t be quite so galling to see Rey beat poor injured Kylo.

Things I loved about TLJ:

  • It surprised me. I didn’t think a SW movie could do that any more. The whole Rey-Kylo plot went from being mildly surprising in how fast it was moving (“wait, surely the confrontation between light-side Skywalker and dark-side Skywalker in the presence of Evil Overlord shouldn’t happen until the third movie?”) to upending the table with the death of Snoke and Kylo offering an escape from the dichotomies of the SW-verse. Snoke was shaping up to be a generic Marvel-movie Big Bad anyway; the only really exciting thing they could do with him, it turns out, was kill him off unexpectedly. The prospect of Kylo and Rey shrugging off the family legacy wholesale with its Light/Dark straitjacket was bolder than anything I thought the series would ever do…and the fact that Rey couold consider it and still be all, “not unless you stop being a space Nazi” was the right resolution. All of that not only totally worked for me, it delighted me.
  • I loved pretty much every moment Mark Hamill was on screen. As mentioned above, he played a side of the character that wasn’t one we’d seen before–but grew out of it in ways I found entirely plausible.
  • Loads of visually memorable moments. The Holdo Maneuver–dear God, was that a beautiful moment. The salt spraying up red (also a tactically inane fight, of course, as a fitting analog for the Hoth scene). Plenty of moments on Jedi Hermit Island. The battle in Snoke’s throne room. Even some of the weaker plot stretches (casino planet, opening bombing run) tended to be visually appealing. I have a lot of time for visually bold and interesting movies, and this was one of them.
  • Sense of humor. Han Solo’s wisecracks were a saving grace of the first trilogy; the lame or absent humor of the prequels just showed how vital an ingredient the snark had been. Not every TLJ joke landed, sure, but they made it a better movie.

And I didn’t mind the slow-motion chase as the framing for half the movie. That was the more flawed half, for sure. But it layed out its rules early and played by them. I didn’t mind it.

You’d never get that from the movie. It’s a strained retcon.

In a nutshell, the Empire sending big lumbering walkers (rather than any type of flying gunship/ troop transport) whose guns only face forward, and the Rebels not exploiting those facts. It led to a visually memorable fight, but a pretty tactically dumb one.

I disagree. The Luke of TLJ is the same Luke as ROTJ, just one for whom the victory of ROTJ wasn’t the last word – a Luke capable of backsliding, and over-reacting to his backslide.

As portrayed in the prequels, the Jedi are just awful. But not intentionally so; they’re meant to be the good guys, and they’re terrible!

But one good thing I’ll say for Episodes 1-3: they’re a lot of fun when reconceptualized as an improvisational D&D campaign.


#498

I don’t think the Jedi Order is the force of “Good”, in fact Jedi Order is a force of “Neutral”, they want to maintain everything in term of “Balance” , so they are like the Druids and Harpers of Forgotten Realms…

If there is a pure force of Good that want to eradicate all things that is dark and Evil, such as the Knights of the Round Table… i have no doubt the Jedi Order will fight them as well in the excuse of maintaining “Balance”… Funny thing was the force of Good never arose from the Star War universe, we only have the Force of Evil and Neutral thus far, where are all the good guys ? :-):thinking:


#499

Are we sure it’s not intentional? Has it been officially stated that that they’re not at least supposed to be good people who are, for lack of better phrasing that’s eluding me at the moment, somewhat misguided? Even they say in the movies I think that they are blinded and missing obvious disturbances in the force that they should be picking up on such as the creation of the clones? Frankly I think their errors go beyond that but I wouldn’t say they are villains. I think they are good guys who have some deep flaws that ultimately lead to their own down fall and that of the republic.

Perhaps it was because by the time Phantom Menace came out I was still fairly young, 8 I think or 9. So I hadn’t had a whole lot of time to build up in my head what I imagined the Jedi Order to be before the Original Trilogy is set. As they are represented I don’t have a problem with them being flawed and think their story ties in very well with the overall story over the course of the six movies.


#500

No… he’s not. He is straight up ready to murder his nephew because he senses a bit of darkness in him. How is that the same Luke who only tried to kill the DARK LORD OF THE SITH when he was actively trying to kill him and actively threatening his sister? You keep insisting that it’s the same but so far the only argument you’ve given is your insistence. He didn’t “backslide” he became the opposite of what he was. This isn’t a human reaction. It’s a plot convenient reaction to justify all the expectation subversion.

Also, the last few scenes of the movie basically reset things to the status quo, but dumber, with a big bad you can’t take seriously as a threat because he’s so incompetent, and good guys so incompetent and few in number that you can’t see how they could possibly do anything. All of this while leaving a good chunk of the fanbase thoroughly unsatisfied because they intentionally failed to meet expectations just for the sake of subverting them.

It’s the same story, just told in a way that alienates those most dedicated to it.


#501

If they sent flying troop transports they would have been shot down by rebel snow speeders or the base defenses. As for the walkers, they had AT-ST support even as far back as the original film allowing for a more maneuverable form of protection for their heavy walkers. From what we saw the AT-AT’s did exceptionally well in that battle only being defeated by Luke’s use of extremely unconventional tactics which I don’t think anybody could have expected. They also managed to shoot down several snow speeders showing that they were capable at fighting off flying opponents. Its like sending heavy and light armor to assault a enemy stronghold instead of helicopters. With the amount of defenses the base had I don’t see air forces doing particularly well there, especially with the risk of low visibility and snow storms.


#502

The TLJ characterization reveals a fragile man whose one great victory (let us remember) entailed losing all his mentors and his father in quick succession…after which point he has to start making things up as he goes along, with no one else in the galaxy qualified to help him know if he’s getting it right or not.

He’s trying to do something he’s actually not very good at (teaching the next generation) which is an unsettling experience at the best of times.

He then senses it starting to unravel in the most horrifying way possible – with his own beloved nephew following the path he thought he’d closed off forever.

That’s a setup for greater anger and despair than anything he felt as a twentysomething confronting his father. That’s the sort of path that can easily become a self-fulfilling cycle of failure, which is what TLJ depicts.

All the old Extended Universe plots that had Luke flirting with the Dark Side were way less credible than this.

At the end of the day I can’t stop you from closing your eyes to every reading but your own (or to the case I’ve been making for an alternative reading). You’ll no doubt keep telling yourself that TLJ is an insult to everyone who really cares about Star Wars. But you’re wrong. :slight_smile:

@Diman, I hear you, but my sympathies remain with the critics:

https://movieplotholes.com/star-wars-the-empire-strikes-back


#503

That was a very interesting read. Thank you for linking those. Although it sounds even from those that the Rebels were more of the incompetent ones. I still do not believe it was a necessarily foolish plan on the Imperials part however (perhaps other than Vader leading the snowtroopers personally, however that could also be somewhat debatable). But I suppose that we could just agree to disagree. Thank you for the fun conversation though.


#504

Well first of all your whole argument, even if it were accurate, isn’t a good one, because Star Wars isn’t supposed to be a realistic examination of human frailty it’s a freaking space opera. So even if you’re right, they’ve effectively turned Star Wars into something inherently not Star Wars.

I mean, if they wanted to do something complex and psychological there were far better choices that wouldn’t require pissing off a large section of the fan base by turning Luke Skywalker into an abject failure. Finn was kidnapped as a child and raised to be a soldier for the First Order… his character arc is about learning to be brave… and then in TLJ he has the same exact arc, even to the point of him failing in the end, except this time instead of it being down to just not being a good enough fighter and having the epic emotional payoff of Rey grabbing the lightsaber, it gets aborted at the end by Rose suddenly going magical stalker fangirl on him and saying something completely contradictory to the scene playing out behind them before passing out and somehow surviving an entire army standing right next to them. But of course that wouldn’t have subverted expectations as much as having Luke turn out to be a complete failure who’s given up on everything he ever cared about and is just waiting to die while leaving his friends to their doom.

Of course none of the things you’ve said are in any way portrayed in the film. All we have is Luke being humorously curmudgeonly for a bit and then it being explained by him having done something completely out of character which you now speculate extensively in order to justify. Your explanation requires Luke to be broken in the first place. To believe that he had definitively defeated the dark side so whole-heartedly that he would be shocked into nearly murdering his nephew in his sleep by merely sensing it in him requires such an exceptional level of arrogance as to be again, completely out of character for him.

I’m just going to point out the passive aggressive ad hominem attack and leave it at that.


#505

The dark side of the force has invaded… here’s a giant porg to fix that!


#506

Rey is the anti- Star Wars hero. She finds herself suddenly innately and unimaginably powerful for no good reason, with the only vague explanation in the films being a throwaway line by Snoke about how Kylo Ren’s sudden rise in power left a vacuum on the Light Side of the Force that needed to be filled. Rey does things considered to be impossible, knows things she shouldn’t, and is able to do great feats with her power without any negative consequences ever arising from her inability to control or predict said power.
I know a console command when I see one. And Rey is definitely a cheater.

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In The Last Jedi rey uses a verieties of skill cheats. Rey has an innate understanding of how to wield and use a lightsaber. No training required. she goes from having no knowledge of the Force to besting Luke Skywalker in single combat, to expertly taking out the Praetorian Guards, to being able to lift what I presume to be several tons of boulders with the Force. What a load of cheating.


#507

I don’t think even Lucas is qualified to say what Star Wars was or is, that is entirely up to the eye of the beholder.

I am actually glad they scrapped most of the old EU, as most of it is just really bad fan fictions that doesn’t really evolves the original characters. TLJ Luke is much more believable and natural compared to the old EU Luke (that revived emperor ark was the real betrayal of the character, and those kids of his had less personality than Jake Loyd, at least Kylo actually behaves like a true skywalker )


#508

maybe she went up then up again then slowly lowered before falling completely then went left then right then left again then right