Star Wars


If he always thought with his heart over his head he would have killed Darth Vader. You’re just arguing in circles while ignoring arguments that damage the legitimacy of your personal opinion. The situations with Ben and Darth Vader were completely different, but you act like they were exactly the same despite all evidence to the contrary.


Blame the direction on ROTJ if you want,I’ve watched that scene repeatedly, and it was definitely fear that stopped him from killing Vader, never rationality.


So now you’re arguing that it was fear that stopped him from falling to the dark side, but also that fear is the path to the dark side… wut?


Something a bit different, what did you all think of this scene?


I’m sorry but I just cannot accept that. This is the man that saw Ben Kenobi die and kept fighting. When Han Solo was frozen in carbonite and given to Jabba he did not just fall into despair, he went and saved him. When his rebel allies were dying all around him during the attack on the Death Star he didn’t retreat he pushed on. He went through so many hardships and suffered so much for his friends that giving up on them is simply not something I can really accept.

I thought it was kind of interesting. It would help explain how he kept hydrated while surrounded by salt water. But maybe thats just the survivalist in me. My wife disliked the scene though. She went, “Ewwww! Why? It’s so gross!” :laughing:


Here’s the thing, none of the hardships he went through are caused directly by him, with exception of betraying Leia’s indentity to Vader, hence the rage that almost killed Vader. Kylo’s ultimate turn and the death of his new order is almost entirely on him, for failing at what made him a Jedi Knight in the first place.


@Diman If your problem with Luke’s writing in TLJ is that he lost his shit when he was responsible for the destruction of the new Jedi Order then you’re already coming from a position that’s easily refuted as @TheDrake has just demonstrated. That is a perfectly human outcome. Basically the only leg you have to stand on at that point besides “I didn’t like it” is the gaping plot hole of Luke leaving a map… but as several of them have explicitly stated, plot holes don’t matter to TLJ fans.


Just to be clear, Luke never intentionally left the map, that map was just leading to the first Jedi Temple, where people who knew Luke believes he went.


My problem is he “lost his shit” due to a ridiculous reason. If his reason was the vision its ridiculous. If there’s something we learned about force visions its that the cause of what you see is not always clear. Take the vision of Padme dying. Yes the vision came true but it was Anakin who caused her death. The same thing happened with Luke and Kylo Ren. Yes Kylo Ren fell but it was due to Luke’s actions. I don’t see how he failed Kylo Ren prior to pulling a lightsaber on him. If you say he failed because Kylo was feeling the draw of the dark side, I’d say what force sensitive doesn’t feel the draw of the dark side? If you say he failed because he saw a vision, I’d say why would a vision cause him to do something so awful when he literally believed that the symbol of evil in the Star Wars universe still had good in them? He snapped over some unclear vision and broke down and gave up on everything he believed in. If Kylo Ren was such an evil threat why didn’t he try to stop him during all those years prior to The Force Awakens? I’m saying his complete character shift doesn’t make sense even with the trauma he went through. I don’t know how I was refuted.

Edit: It was also a Jedi belief that the future wasn’t set in stone. Visions showed a possible future but not the only outcome. For Luke to snap and almost kill Kylo Ren over a possible future, despite being the symbol of believing that everyone could be redeemed, is where most of my problem comes from.


This is mentioned nowhere in any movie. Is this another novelization retcon? R2D2 had the last piece of the map and only revealed it once Rey arrived at the resistance base. And again, it was completely out of character for Luke to try to kill Ben in the first place. He was his freaking nephew and student, not the dark lord of the sith. He just saw some darkness in him, not a direct threat to both his life and his sister.


Nowhere in TFA, certainly not from anyone who actually knew Luke, said the map was left by Luke. The map within R2 was a copy of the imperial archive, missing the section containing the location for the first Jedi Temple. People just assumed the map was left by Luke, even though it was never stated within the movie.

How R2 got the Imperial Archive is never explained on screen. Though this is R2 we’re talking about, so I assume either he tried to locate the temple himself at some point, or he hacked that archive years ago during the rebellion era.


Then why didn’t he tell anyone about it until Rey showed up?


The archieve is useless without the missing piece. Why he waked up at that particular moment is anybody’s guess.


Well, here’s a really simple explanation. Rian Johnson cared more about subverting expectations than writing a coherent story. He knew the movie would be a massive blockbuster no matter what because one, it was Star Wars, and two, it was following the generally well received The Force Awakens. He simply didn’t bother to account for the map, and that’s why there’s no explanation for it without massive amounts of speculation.


The difference being that Anakin had already been sliding down that path for some time, and even then they had him struggle with his decision to fall for most of the movie. With Luke they cram all of this into a flashback about as long as a commercial break. It’s sloppy. Even Hamill knew this, it’s why he complained about how they portrayed Luke in this movie.

As for the map, it was a plot Macguffin. Nothing more. Both of these movies just have such lazy writing, albeit in different ways. Awakens because it brazenly pilfered, and TLJ because it wanted so much to subvert expectations that it didn’t care if the ones subverted included a cogent plot or characters who act like actual people.


See this was one of the reasons that for all their shortcomings I managed to enjoy the prequels. I think they handled the rise of Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire very well. In fact, Revenge of the Sith was one of, if not my favorite movie. It really did a good job at portraying the growing conflict in Anakin and the desire to save the woman he loved. For all the hate the prequels get, the new trilogy could learn a few things from them I think.


The canonical series now depicts Luke’s victory over fear and despair in ROTJ as a major turning point but not the end of the story. I love that. I get that others hate it, that they want their heroes’ character journeys to move in just one direction without ambiguity, relapses, old flaws manifesting themselves in new forms.

But it is more realistic and (for my money) respectful to show characters who continue to struggle with their flaws even after major victories over them. No victory is total or final. The struggle to change and stay changed is lifelong.

Not everyone accepts this. I don’t think Luke did. He believed in final victories, and that he’d won one. The horror of finding evil regrowing in his school, his family, and (after his momentary relapse into fear/anger) himself after the victory of ROTJ makes his despair entirely plausible to me. He didn’t know what to do with it except run away.

TLJ doesn’t put a lot of time into showing that fall, it’s true. It’s interested in how Luke comes to terms with failure and imperfection. That’s the unifying theme of the movie, and while I’d agree that a few of the other plots exploring it don’t entirely hold together, I found Luke’s journey immensely satisfying.

And it’s not so much that plot holes “don’t matter” as that they don’t ruin the movie. Any more than the following did:

  • Luke getting trained in just a day or two on Dagobah (following the time indicators of the contemporaneous Han/Leia chase scene)
  • Luke’s plan to rescue Han from Jabba making no sense but working anyway
  • The tactics of the Hoth fight making no sense from either side
  • Vader not using the Force on Bespin to make sure his son got good and captured
  • The raft of problems introduced by the prequels around no one recognizing the droids, how Luke and Leia could possibly have gone undiscovered, etc.

I didn’t let those spoil the original trilogy for me, and I’m doing the same here.

Of course, JJ Abrams’ maddening writing style (create mysteries that you don’t know the answer to and fail to come up with a satisfying solution) has saddled the new trilogy with more than its share of holes. I take off points for them; they make TFA look less good all the time. But TLJ has so much going for it that the score remains a net positive. (And I have sympathy for Johnson’s decision to quietly hang up a couple of senseless Abrams ideas rather than using screen time to explain them away).


If we’re going to bring up Luke’s short training time, it just makes it all the more glaring that Rey had no training time, period, until TLJ. She literally taught herself to mind control James Bond and take on a Sith in combat.

At least the tactical inanities on Hoth were fun to watch. The giant, snail-paced cluster that is the movie-long chase is as bereft of redeeming qualities as it is story justification. It’s like Fury Road, but if it went at the pace of the OJ Simpson car chase.

What are these net positives you see in TLJ to overcome the writing and directing deficiencies?


Regarding these, let’s not exaggerate:
‘James Bond’ was a nameless stormtrooper. Stormtroopers aren’t exactly known for their strong willpower and ability to resist mind tricks.

‘A sith’ was a severely wounded, emotionally damaged (reckless) sith apprentice. He was shot with a bowcaster, a weapon previously shown to explode and throw back two stormtroopers with the force of the shot. The fact that he was still standing, let alone combat capable, was extremely impressive. Rey, who already had previously established melee weapon skills and the Force guiding her was able to stand toe to toe with Kylo at his weakest.


That was a jump the shark moment for me in #3. I didn’t buy how quickly Anakin went from embracing the dark side to save Padme in a fit of well-meaning and self-righteous naivette to slaughtering children and even murdering Padme herself. If he’d have had half a brain he’d have realized in advance that she’d reject him for what he was about to do before he did it. If he had truly loved her as much as the earlier story implied, he’d have let her go instead of murdering the love of his life. It was just too sudden and drastic a personality change, and I hate it when writers/directors get lazy and hand a major character the idiot ball in order to advance the story in the direction they desire. It killed the whole movie for me.