Star Wars


#449

Well then I honestly think we are way too far on opposite sides of the ledger if that is your view.

That’s one way of looking at him. Another is you had a guy who was willing to die to save his father to a guy who literally tried to kill his nephew because of a bad dream.

To make matters worse, the movie basically makes Rey take said ROTJ Luke view in her quest to save Keylo. In other words, Mr. Johnson made an active effort to tear the character of Luke apart while making Rey into that (virtual) exact same character.


#450

I wouldn’t say that personally. The Luke from the first two movies fought Vader even when he knew he couldn’t win. He risked his life for his friends and the rebellion. He showed bravery and loyalty. In TLJ he was willing to let all of his friends and the New Republic die. He was a shell of his former self. I know he went through something traumatic but to go from someone who watched so many of his fellow rebels die, his own father cut his hand off, and nearly die because he believed in the good in Darth Vader, to someone who breaks down over a vision is pretty unbelievable.


#451

Heh I have honestly never imagined Luke as the ‘stroll into the club and walk out with two girls’ type, even when he gets a level up in ROTJ, but that may be me just never having found him attractive. Han Solo yes, Luke, nope nope nope. I like him, but have never thought he was attractive.

But even in Empire Strikes Back he was the type that would do anything for his friends, even when told that doing so would risk everything they had worked for. Which still doesn’t quite make sense as the same man who would later go “oh my nephew might be struggling with the dark side, I think I might kill him.”

I completely understand the argument that it’s been 30 years or however long and people change, which is why I don’t think what they did with Luke was necessarily going to be movie ruining. But I will say that if you have a character who was the main character of an original trilogy, and you check back on him in a new series many years later and he’s done such a character reversal, you’ve got to explain how he got there.


#452

To go From :"I will never give up on you father. " To “a Bad dream time to kill my nephew” is a character reversal. in RotJ he is super fucking chill . You’d be forgiven for thinking Keanu Reeves time traveled to take his place.


#453

I agree about ‘disrespected’. The movie didn’t work for me the way it did for you (though I’m glad you enjoyed it :-)), but hey, some people loath the prequels and I quite enjoy them and the vitriol against George Lucas for them I personally feel crosses the line into cyber bullying and I think it’s quite sad that people’s reactions essentially drove him from the series.

I’m not saying using disrespected was at all on the same level as that :slight_smile: but I do think it opens up an interesting line of thought about why people will sometimes use such personal language when disappointed by an entry in a series they love and if it’s justified (frankly I would say no). Creators have a right to make something they think is good even if the majority don’t like it. Now the majority have a right to dislike it and critique it and even get passionate it about it, but I don’t think they have the right to feel insulted by it or victimized, unless I don’t know, the entire point of the new entry was to insult fans of the original which I honestly don’ think TLJ was (again, just want to stress, I’m not saying that using the term disrespected was over a line or anything. Just since we are talking about Star Wars, it led me down this thought process since there’s been a lot of very strong words used when talking about the Star Wars prequels and now the new movies.)


#454

I do have to admit this was one of the biggest plot holes. Which is saying something from a film that has a (space) car chase so excruciatingly slow and stupid that a couple of people can do some soul-searching, go upend an entire planet’s society, get locked up and still have time to jump back in and screw up everything.

Luke had the lesson of not trusting things to be as they might initially appear literally traumatized into his brain in the cave on Dagobah. In what world would he kill anyone based solely on a vision, much less his own family and the kid of two of his favorite people? The awkward Life Day meals to follow alone would have had to make him reconsider.


#455

Hahaha! I love that line! I wish I could give it double likes.


#456

Thanks! Seriously though, it’s like they just determined Luke was going to be a hermit from the beginning, and then five minutes before the script had to be finalized for shooting they realized they never explained why and scribbled something into margins to explain it.

Actually, I just had a revelation, and it’s a mind-blower (albeit something I should have figured out long ago): it seems bad because it is from bad source material. Luke’s motivation for ganking his nephew is literally Batman’s for putting the V Superman in that movie’s title. Except Kylo wasn’t awake to mutter “Save Leia” and defuse the whole situation.


#457

Anakin: I had a bad dream now I have to kill younglings to save Padme’s life.

Luke: I had a bad dream now I have to kill my nephew to save other’s lives.


#458

OK, where did this saying of Luke had a dream comes from, because it is not from the movie. Luke had more than a vision, he felt Kylo’s thoughts and desires, he saw in that moment what his naphew is becoming, and in his fear and shock he acted on defensive instinct, trying to terminate a soon to be monster. While he ultimately didn’t go through with it, the fact that he showed his fear ultimately broke any hope Kylo had for the light side, and proved to him even Luke is not free from the might of the dark side.


#459

I’ll admit it might have been oversimplification on my part but the point still stands. Luke is the man who looked at the person responsible for wiping out the Jedi Order, a person who murdered countless innocents, a man who brought the galaxy under their heel, and still believed in the good in them. The vision should have only strengthened Luke’s resolve to help Kylo Ren, not draw a lightsaber on him. Luke proved with Vader that nobody is beyond redemption. I can’t accept it was defensive instinct when we are talking about the man who put his lightsaber away during his duel with Vader on the Death Star. His reaction was just so out of left field that I honestly was taken aback. Even Kylo Ren’s reaction to it was ridiculous. The whole plot and reasoning behind Kylo Ren’s fall to the dark side requires such a large suspension of disbelief on the viewers part that it is somewhat absurd.


#460

Anakin had a force vision about Padme dying. He was already struggling with the Jedi code due to his love for her. The fact that Palpatine seemed to offer him a way out, a way to save her he went for it.

Luke had a force vision of his nephew falling to the dark side but wasn’t struggling with anything (as far as we know) considering his sheer belief that he could save Darth Vader (a person who Ben idolises) it was a different thing.

But here is the thing it was established in the film that that achto had that there was some dark side presence under the ground they could have had that affecting him on some level.


#461

They turned Luke into the opposite of what he was at the end of ROTJ with practically on explanation. That’s not respectful, it’s just another example of them subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. They turned him into someone who would consider murdering his own nephew because he saw some darkness in him, then further turned him into someone who would abandon all his friends and the entire galaxy to certain doom and just go somewhere to wait to die… But for some reason he left a fucking map to his location so they could find him… which of course is never brought up. What definition of respect does that come anywhere close to?


#462

I totally agree with you on this… when i finish warching Return of the Jedi, seeing how Luke had such positive ambition , how he met up with Yoda, Anakin and Obiwan , how he wishfully regard the best of Leia and Solo.
It totally set me up with at example of how a positive young Jedi should be , the future is bright … i am looking forward to witness Luke setting up a Grand Jedi Temple in near future , especially hearing rumour about ep 7 is on the horizon…
But as it turn up ?? What did i learn ? Don’t hope too much from a hero, he or she may regress in the future, the same can said about John Connor from terminator universe…
As from the current saviour from star wars universr , how powerful she may be… she may turn into another Luke in future :frowning:

That"s why i love story from HG/CoG… we have a chance and choice to help ourselves becoming our own heroes :slight_smile:

We won’t be control and sadden by movie directors anymore who turn our hero into a pityful hermit or villain… . We are forging a hero of outselves from the HG/CoG universe :slight_smile:


#463

Did you forget that before he throw away the saber, he was inches away from killing Vader, and only the fear of what he is becoming snapped him out of it. Skywalkers are a sentimental breed, thinking more with their heart than their head. Thus overwhelming fear and anger easily clouds their judgements across the sega films.


#464

Did you forget everything that happened before he was inches away from killing Vader? Vader and the emperor suggesting that they didn’t need him anymore because they’d just read his mind to discover that Leia was his sister so they could just kill him and turn her instead? Luke didn’t almost kill Vader because he noticed some darkness in him. Vader was actively trying to kill him so that he could harm Leia. And also he was Darth Vader.

We know four Skywalkers in the film franchise and of those two are shown to be irrational and emotional, and one of those spends the entire OT growing out of it… That one is Luke.


#465

No I didn’t. But you see, that kind of proves my point. That was supposed to be a defining moment for Luke. He looked the dark side in the face and rejected it. He saw the power it gave him and decided instead to put his faith in Vader. To throw away all that character development and growth was very disappointing. Him throwing away his lightsaber symbolized rejecting the anger and Dark Side inside of him. And TLJ just throws all of that out of the window.


#466

He rejected anger, but never the love for his friends. That love is ultimately a pathway to fear, and it is only a matter of time for him to loosen his guard.


#467

So how is letting all his friends get murdered by the First Order because he decides to be a hermit on some rock not abandoning or rejecting them? If he truly loved them shouldn’t he have tried to fight for them? Like he’d done in every other movie we saw him in? All I’m saying is that they turned his character into something that is fundamentally not Luke. He was told all his friends were in danger and basically wen’t, “Oh well, sucks to be them.” He abandoned everything he suffered and fought to create. All over a vision of something that might happen. I’m sorry but I cannot accept that.


#468

Again, that is thinking with his heart over his head. The guy was overwhelmed with grief and despair at the time, and came to the conclusion that he suck at what he does and the force will ultimately do a better job. This happens to a lot of people who peaked too early.