Should trans/non-binary characters be questioned about their gender?

Honestly, I’d say she’s more likely to get CALLED a “bigot” because of addressing it in a way a few disapprove of.

But such is the way of writing. You get critics of all kinds, you just ignore them and be proud of what you’ve written.

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One question I did have after seeing the word ‘transphobia’ thrown around immediately in reference to the characters…is it really though? I’m not going to pretend to be too educated in these matters but I don’t think a character that the main character has just met making a simple mistake, being corrected and then apologizing or whatever would be an instance of any kind of mean-spirited discrimination.

Having an intentionally loathsome character deliberately cause emotional trauma in that way would be a different situation of course and one that would have to be dealt with carefully. (Just have them cause physical trauma to the MC’s puppy or something to prove that they’re evil instead maybe if you’re not wanting to upset anyone, that’s always a classic…)

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Yes, but the real life experience is, “fourteen people have done this to me today.” So even if it only happens once in a game, that ends up being time #15 to the player.

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It wouldn’t necessarily be by the characters in the story, but it is a conscious decision on the part of the author to include something that they can be pretty assured will make their player uncomfortable, or at least aware that they’re being treated differently because of their gender identity. Maybe it isn’t mean-spirited discrimination, but it is something that will make the trans player feel othered, which is a kind of transphobia. It’s kind of hard to describe–there’s a spectrum of how overt/hurtful/bad it can be

Personally, I’ve been saying transphobia because of

Where of course, “cruel, bigoted bully” implies active and malicious transphobia, as well as “refuse to accept them as the gender they identify with,” so I feel like it was implied that what would be added would be mean-spirited discrimination, but there are subtler things that are still hard for trans people to deal with and read. Not all transphobia is overtly violent

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Yes, I have been kind of avoiding that question. A lot of people have asked whether discrimination against non-cis people is essential to the game, to which the answer is… Nope. Not at all. The game is set in a very progressive world, so there wouldn’t be very many characters who would discriminate against someone based on their gender or sexuality. If an NPC referred to the MC as the wrong gender and the MC corrected them, about 95% of NPCs would go, “Oops, sorry about that” and refer to them as the correct gender for the rest of the game. Bigotry would be limited to characters who are particularly massive dicks.

That’s true, but sadly, it’s not so much a case of, “There aren’t many companies that allow you to play a non-binary character and not be discriminated against” so much as “There aren’t many companies that allow you to play a non-binary character at all.” I suppose the reason why I’m under representing it is because, while having a non-binary character might be almost impossible to find in other companies, it’s quite common in CoG and HGs. It also seems to be the standard that in most CoG and HGs, a non-binary character will have their gender automatically known by everyone, and all characters will refer to them by their preferred pronouns without even having to ask. The reason I made this poll was to see whether or not this is what players actually prefer.

I’m very interested by the results, because vocally, most people seem to be strongly in favour of “Have all characters in the game automatically know the character’s gender”, but the results of the polls are over 50% in favour of “including struggles and issues that trans/non-binary people have to deal with”. So… Not quite sure what to make of that. :yum:

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The game is set in a very progressive world

Then I really don’t see why you need to add in any transphobia. A massive dick can still be someone who acknowledges and doesn’t insult someone’s identity. There are a million ways to be a massive dick that aren’t discriminatory.

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Unfortunately, without good demographics from the polls, it’s hard to tell if the folks answering are the ones who would be most affected by the answers. If the world you’re creating is really progressive, then I’d say there are other ways for shitty characters to be shitty to each other without bring in marginalized groups.

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Lol. Yeah, I’ve seen some of the reviews on GooglePlay… Apparently some people are REALLY pissed to see a female character do anything besides housework. :yum:

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I think you’d be surprised the amount of people in the GooglePlay reviews who’re fuming through the ears that the game even gives the option to play as non-binary. :yum:

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My first reaction as a game designer is: what game are you designing? I need a lot more details about the game to even to begin to answer the question. The focus on “realism” is misplaced from everything I’ve read in the thread so far.

As a long time friend of trans individuals,my reaction was: wtf?

As a newer friend with a non-binary person, my reaction was: once they inform me, I try my utmost to address them how they desire but I know there might be struggles I am unable to fully relate to.

Getting back to the perspective as a game designer: my concern is: do I have the qualifications to design a game dealing with the discrimination and struggles of non-binary or trans people?

Of my credentials, I am not qualified out of the box. I could write about these issues but I would want advisors whom I trusted to be a part of my design and development from the very beginning.

CoG staff sometimes refer to “sensitivity” readers; I feel having an overseer of this nature for those areas in question to be essential.

I think you are conflating issues; issues that should be separated in the design process.

Hosted Games and Official CoG games have different standards they apply because CoG as a company has very specific and narrowly tailored objectives to address game design in the manner they do. It really is that simple.

The results of the poll are not clear - are the respondents responding from a purely hypothetical stand point or from a different perspective?

I really dislike polls of this nature for several different reasons

PS: I really don’t understand the face you keep putting after your comments … what do you mean by it?

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NO! Not the puppy!!! :scream:

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Similar to what @SirEdmund is saying, my initial reaction to seeing the poll, even before reading through this discussion, is that there’s a pretty good chance that the poll is not going to be representative of trans and nonbinary people in particular, nor even necessarily of the group of people who’d be most likely to actually play a trans character, whether or not they are themselves. I expect that a large portion of the voters would not be trans, in a proportion quite different from the commentators. Those commenting would on average be those who are more invested in this. This kind of split has happened in other polls before, which I’ve particularly noticed in polls with public voting. This is a case where I would consider it more useful to consider the reactions of people who are the most affected by it. Someone who’s not even likely to play as trans but who is of the “depict discrimination” opinion would be impacted far less.

I did not vote in the poll because I don’t feel like it’s really my question to answer; I would rather defer to the people whom the question is really about.

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That’s fair, but it’s not necessarily going to be seen in the same way. For instance, if a man threatened to rape me IRL, I would be absolutely terrified and livid. If, however, I was playing a game in which a male NPC threatens to rape my female MC, I wouldn’t be upset by that because it’s a fictional character threatening another fictional character. I wouldn’t see it as something that happened to me.

And now ask yourself if a rape survivor would feel the same.

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Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering about. For all I know, the people who voted for option A could all be cis people, so the choice wouldn’t actually affect them anyway. Would be nice to hear from more people who voted for the other options, so that I know their points of view and why they think it’s a good idea.

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You make a good point, but I also think that it depends on the person. I’m not a rape survivor, but I have been in a situation where I’ve been extremely traumatized by a particular event in my life, to the point of having PTSD. Shortly after the event, I saw a movie in which the exact same event is reenacted to a horribly similar degree. I decided that I wasn’t going to let myself get upset by it, because I knew I was always going to come across things that reminded me of that event, and if I let myself get upset over something that happened in a movie, then things like that would continue to affect me for the rest of my life.

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Well, speaking for me, i voted for “I would prefer if the game included some of the struggles and issues that trans and non-binary people have to deal with in everyday life” and i am non-binary. Yes, it does suck to have that kind of thing happen with me in real life, and i am absolutely disgusted by people who refuse to accept my identity because they just have a warped vision of the world. But that is how my reality is, how people are. The fact that in CoG games people just know to use “they” instantly is something i got used to, but i admit is a minor annoyance because people wouldn’t instantly know that. I voted for that because i think it is a good addition to my immersion factor, and it is a simple way to make me hate a villain. Not that i want every author to do this kind of thing, i am perfectly fine with our identity affecting only pronouns, but if someone wants to do it, i would support them. But i can’t speak for the majority… Considering all i read in this forum, i feel like you would get more negative repercussion than what’s worth it, i think this very own tread is representative of how people feel(at least the people who had something to write about it, and they probably are the ones who care more)

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And maybe that works for you, and that’s great. But not every single person is the same. As writers, we have a responsibility to avoid attacking our readers in ways that could hurt them personally or further their discrimination. In the example I gave of 14 wrong pronouns incidents, many people would turn away from your game simply because they are tired of having their pronouns challenged/gotten wrong.

And again, in your specific story, there’s no reason to have transphobia.

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Lots, lots more to read, but it’s nearly 3 in the morning over here and I need sleep. Will be back tomorrow. :blush:

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Like with any creative decision, you’ll find some who appreciate it - assuming it’s done well - and others who will hate it no matter how well it’s executed.

Generally, there are two questions that serve as a good guide to help determine whether something belongs in a story: Does this advance the plot? Does this enhance characterization? If the answer to both is “no” - then it probably doesn’t belong. If your idea can achieve one of those goals, then it’s a worthy element to consider including.

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