Hey, the Euric betrothal is genuinely really freaking OP (+20 barb favor, +10 resources, +10 power in exchange for -8 stability and -15 public favor), it’s a great way of cementing the loyalty of the Foederati without permitting monstrosities like Augusta wearing trousers 
. Besides, a monarch should always marry for the good of the realm rather than for love, a good Empress/Principissa puts their duty to Iudia above all else 
8 Likes
Well, that’s not bad. Not bad at all.
I very much share your sentiment in this regard. It doesn’t befit the Principissa to wear something so clearly beneath her station.
And that’s where you lost me.
I will combine the two and make it work, and no amount of body bags will stop me.
4 Likes
Thanks! I’ll correct these.
I think I could do these, the first one would be fairly easy, the second would take a little longer due to the routing I’d need to fix.
9 Likes
I agree with everything you’ve said here, but this part in particular resonates with me.
I love Augusta (she is my daughter, after all), but I’m trying to stop an Empire from crumbling here. As much as it would pain me if Augusta ended up in an unhappy marriage, it’s something I’m willing to take a chance on if it helps win us the war against Victoria, then Uzin Khan, and secures her reign along with the future prosperity of the Empire.
Political marriages are rarely about whether the couple in question will actually end up loving each other or not anyway (though obviously it would be better for everyone involved if they did), so it really shouldn’t be much of a consideration in my view when deciding between potential betrothals for Augusta, unless you’re playing as a particularly idealistic Prefect.
Even if we were to use possible romantic chemistry as part of our reasoning in this matter, I don’t really understand why Victoria has to be the only possible consideration in this regard (whom certain people have this weird fixation and idealisation about, as I see it).
With Euric and Laurentius in particular, there’s already signs of a potential loving marriage there; if you let them spend them with her beforehand, Augusta seems genuinely happy with the respective betrothals if you convince her to agree to them.
Even Marius has the chance to be a happy match, in my opinion (especially for a Paragon Augusta). I feel like it’s unfair to dismiss him as just a future Titus 2.0 for essentially the mere crime of checks notes being an awkward, teenage boy being pressured by his scheming grandmother to cosy up to the future Empress (and is probably trying too hard as a result); there’s about as much evidence that he’d be a poor match romantically for Augusta as there is for Victoria for a positive one, based on what our Prefect actually knows about either of them (in other words, precious little).
9 Likes
Until you mentioned it, I didn’t either. The name literally means ‘prince eligible for the kingship’ and is usually translated in Latin as filius regis. I am just used to seeing it with the æsh instead. The Saxons are probably a good analog for the Uvelli, who inhabit an area that looks suspiciously like the Low Countries.
It remains to be seen which of the betrothals are most advantageous. Euric already gets you benefits upfront, but my guess is that either Marius or Victoria in a peace summit will be the best for Empire stats. They let you entirely avoid the civil war and its penalties, will probably come with stability benefits instead of losses, and I can’t imagine peace is bad for power and resources either. It also is the hardest of the options to get, requiring a moderately difficult conciliatory/pacifist run where you don’t kill any of the Galeriae.
Yeah, I’m slowly coming around to the idea of betrothing her to one of the Galeriae. I think Euric is also a decent option, but I guess there is just a cultural resistance to betrothing the Empress to a barbarian. I am interested in saving the Iudian Empire, not handing it over to outside factions. This isn’t even a Gallo-Roman aristocracy, it’s handing the Empire to Germanic tribes from beyond the Rhone (or Rhive, I should say).
The only reason I don’t play a Senate run is for that initial 5 power boost in Chapter I, and because it’s impossible to get the best outcome for the crises in Chapter II without Economics V. You can’t get Rhetoric IV (for the best outcome in the Senate + People negotiations) and Econ V by Chapter II without neglecting Augusta.
Intellectually, you’re right. The best decision is to betroth her to somebody. I recognize that. But I think we have to realize that we’re not accumulating imperial power for the sake of it. We are building the Empire’s strength to use it, to shape this state into something that we want it to be and think it must be to survive.
And my Prefect has been quite scarred by political marriages. Sure, as @Iello might argue, Julia and Titus were a somewhat exceptional case, but I think my Prefect feels as if political marriages will inevitably lead to the sort of unhappy circumstances which result in damaged children, and then you’re back to Scilla and her progeny. If Augusta and Marius’ children are similarly neglected in the way that Julia and Titus’/ours was, it might only be a couple generations. We need something more stable than just blindly hoping that we do not see a return to kinslaying due to power struggles within the dynasty.
4 Likes
I will always fondly remember the fact that Habsburg Empress Maria Theresa, an exemplar of duty, moved heaven and earth to make sure that her favourite daughter, Maria Christina, married with the one she loved. We don’t talk about the rest of her children
The requirements for being a Titus are quite high, and Marius is nowhere near close to fulfilling them. Besides, Titus isn’t even that bad, if we smack some sense into him.
Besides Victoria, I can see rather easily how the rest of the betrothal options could lead to a happy marriage. They are all well-raised, well-meaning kids and could become a great support for Augusta, even sharing some of her burden. The Prefect is not old, but not young either, after all. And inheriting personnel is not as easy as inheriting assets. She needs her own people.
Unfortunately for me (and some additional casualties), I value my daughter way too much to endanger her position in any way, shape or form. Those betrothals come with some unwelcome baggage that I’m not willing to bequeath to her.
5 Likes
A truly horrific thought. I am glad I never have to decide between two dreadful options by not allying with the foederati. I think being forced to choose between them, I might just quit and purchase a vacation villa.
It’s a classic enemies-to-lovers ship, it’s surely not unfamiliar. It’s narratively very satisfying, even though knowing this story it will not be fairy tale in any sense.
But my primary reasons are political – it is the best way to end the war with minimal bloodshed and avoid harm to the Empire in my view. Moreover it suits my goal of ending hereditary autocracy while having the Galeriae buy into it. I just note the chemistry because I’m often accused of putting politics above my daughter’s happiness and I certainly am not about to let that accusation stand.
I note that Laurentius is not an option when Augusta is the prefect’s daughter, and when she isn’t, it’s the most horribly self-serving option imaginable. In this case, I’d call it the reverse of putting duty first: it’s putting self first and using Augusta’s happiness as an excuse.
I feel like folks who say this haven’t been emotionally scarred by Augusta’s reaction to a forced betrothal if she gets publicly outed by Titus. It was bad. Never again.
Even in the more optional scenario – yes, it’s possible she will come around on Marius. On the other hand, steamrolling over her views (especially with high strength Augusta) may not end well. She may resent all parties involved for that alone.
Even people good on paper might not get along in such circumstances.
Yup! Nice touch by Azan there.
Aha! You’ll come around to my way of thinking yet.
Also, you’ll remember what happened to the Romans when Eudocia was betrothed to Huneric. The betrothal was subsequently broken by Petronius Maximus, as often occurs during imperial usurpations, which resulted in some famous… uh, Vandalism. Imperial marriages are messy enough, inviting outside powers in and giving them a stake (which is what a political marriage is) complicates things further.
Although who knows – perhaps Galla Placidia’s marriage to Ataulf would have made subsequent history end up quite differently had the Visigoths been attached more firmly to the Roman imperial project instead of permanently kept out as foederati. Certainly a Romano-Gothic alliance as envisioned by Amalasuintha had great potential, before that option was destroyed by resistance among both the Goths and the Eastern Romans.
Yeah, this has been my perennial issue. In my last run I had to sacrifice Rhetoric IV for the sake of Econ V, which has resulted in some difficulty because that’s also the run I was attempting the compromise. I haven’t taken it all the way through to see if it would’ve worked out, but my Senate standing was much more dire than usual and I took a hit to imperial favor as well.
I should note that political marriages are probably the norm in the Iudian aristocracy – would our prefects have any reason to suspect they always result in damaged children? I mean, even from our own plebeian background it doesn’t seem like the marriages pushed on the prefect were love matches, y’know?
Conversely one might say leaving her alone without a partner in rule is endangering her more than baggage.
3 Likes
Although I’m a Senate main, I think Euric’s actually pretty cool! He courts Augusta by getting to know who she is as a person instead of as a political leader, he’s enthusiastic about integrating into Iudian society to overcome social stigma, he takes Augusta on hunting trips to spend time together, and he’s charismatic enough that even tyrant Augusta falls for him! It’s not enough for me to abandon Ceto, but I think Euric is just as compatible a partner for Augusta as Victoria. Arguably better, since he’s never attempted to kill Augusta as far as we know 
In Marius’s defense, I think Augusta’s reaction there is more a consequence of the betrothal being forced upon her after her Father (real or presumed) committed suicide and her entire sense of self-worth as a Galeriae was proven a lie. I know Augusta calls Marius stupid and weird, but she’s also a moody teenager who’s never been introduced to friends her age, and unfortunately Marius is a shy and awkward nerd who’s not a warrior type (which I suspect Augusta has a thing for).
Besides, you don’t have to steamroll over Augusta to betroth her to Marius, technically it’s easier to convince her to marry Marius than Victoria. I’m totally willing to eat my words if Marius turns out to be a terrible match for Augusta and it degenerates into Julia x Titus 2.0, but right now I do think there’s potential for paragon Augusta and Marius to evolve into real love.
I actually find that Warfare III is the best stat for the Senate&People negotiations, the Warfare choice with Consentia has no effect on Empire Stats and is just +10 Senatorial Favor for -10 Imperial Favor (which is very cheap), and the Warfare choice with Ceto is -5 power and -5 military favor for +15 public favor. It’s almost as good for Empire Stats as the Economics choices with Antonius that result in -5 resources and +5 power.
4 Likes
I understand the trope, I just don’t think it should have any bearing in people’s decision-making.
This is a totally idealised version of how things would go in such a scenario though. The main reason I’ve never been a fan of any sort of peace option is because there’s too many moving parts, too many things that you have to get right, too many things that can easily go wrong (to me it makes way more sense, and is far more practical, to go all in with your chosen ally to crush Victoria and Iblin decisively).
You’re basically relying on everything going perfectly, while hoping that neither one of Victoria or Iblin decide eventually to screw us over and break the peace somewhere down the line (and if they do, well, you’ve already given them a power base to help them do just that).
Also for me at least, speaking as someone who typically plays the game as Augusta’s father, there’s no way in hell I’m letting Victoria get anywhere near my daughter if there’s even a remote possibility that she might hurt her (especially considering that she’s the betrothal option most likely to try to do that). Not taking that chance in a million years.
Funnily enough, ending hereditary autocracy isn’t actually something that I want personally (at least not in the form that is likely to occur in such a scenario)
Men are already so discriminated against as is, with Consort being one of the few positions where a man could have any sort of influence (albeit indirectly). By betrothing Augusta to Victoria, you’re potentially setting a precedent where men won’t be needed at all in the future when it comes to royal matches (which as a man who typically plays this game as a man, isn’t something I want to happen).
You’ve misunderstood me here, because I do actually agree that Laurentius is a terrible betrothal option (unless one is playing as a particularly self-serving Prefect, in which case it might be what you’re going for).
I was just using it as an example of a potentially loving match that isn’t Victoria (whom I’m not necessarily even convinced is actually a potentially loving match to begin with).
That situation doesn’t have to happen though - it’s certainly never happened to me, as I’m usually pretty careful in making sure that Augusta’s parentage never gets found out (you also don’t have to be Augusta’s parent, for a start).
In the few scenarios where I haven’t been able convince Titus not to out Augusta, well, there was a solution to that:
Again, I’ve never had to do this. Any betrothal that I’ve been able to arrange in any of my playthroughs, I’ve been able get Augusta’s consent willingly (as @Jaher pointed out, it’s actually easier to convince Augusta to agree to a betrothal to Marius than to Victoria. So, no steamrolling necessary).
Of course there’s scenarios where a betrothal to Marius could be an unhappy match, but it doesn’t have to be so depending on the circumstances (in the same way you could make the argument about any of the betrothal options, in my view).
3 Likes
Well, I suppose that sounds nice. Hunting is a perfectly acceptable pastime for an aristocratic couple. But as you note, he’s only available with a foederati alliance and that’s just entirely out of keeping with my Kyro-based political stance for my prefect.
It’s entirely possible that you’re right on that last count – that would make some of her preferences make a lot of sense. And yes, it’s of course tied up with EVERYTHING falling apart for her just when she loses control of her own future too (in more ways than one). But you might understand it as a bit of a scarring moment to reject that option entirely.
Well, we’ll each of us make our decisions in our own way, won’t we? There’s no autocrat or goddess from on high telling us how to play the game, after all.
I’m not a minmaxer. I make my decisions for narrative reasons.
Remarkable – I see the bellicose option as the most idealized one. You have to win decisively and with minimal pain for it to make sense. Civil wars are devastating – they cause empires to break. They can cause irrecoverable damage. You want an Actium – but you’re just as likely to get a Frigidus instead. Maintaining a peaceful status quo, even one that sacrifices a bit of personal power, is worth it for the sake of the Empire.
But again, I play a primarily duty-oriented prefect who’s also influenced by his love for Augusta. But he’s not going to burn down the entire Empire for her. He’s not so selfish.
I assume my prefect is a student of history. He might realize that a civil war in the middle of an invasion is a pretty stupid idea. Gambling it all on a decisive win is absolutely foolhardy in this kind of scenario. It seems considerably more idealistic to me to believe that a civil war can be so quickly and neatly won and then immediately pivot to fight off an existential threat.
My prefect is not so saccharine or sentimental that he’d potentially see thousands or potentially tens of thousands of Iudians and provincials die in a civil war to avoid “a remote possibility” of harm to a family member.
My prefect fought to overthrow Scilla and her line for exactly that kind of monstrous logic. In fact, I’d wager Scilla never did anything quite as awful.
And of course, this is exactly where Leta’s duty vs love dilemma comes in. She chose love for her family in the end – many players may well do the same, especially father prefects. I just want to note that in this particular instance, the gravity of choosing to pursue civil war over any sort of compromise.
I find in a lot of popular media and games, the audience tends to abstract people that aren’t seen directly. The fate of all the legionaries and common people of the Empire doesn’t matter next to Augusta because we see Augusta, but everyone else is abstracted into a number on the stats page. But roleplaying with in-universe logic, it’s actually kind of horrifying to say that we’d be happy to let all those people die just for our kiddo. At least in my view it is.
But who knows.
I don’t see a single privileged individual (who still exists as nothing but breeding stock) lording it over everyone else as doing all that much to combat discrimination, personally. I wonder if during the French Revolution, many French women were like “but at least we have Marie Antoinette!” Something tells me not very many.
I’m aware – but you were talking about a father prefect, so I wanted to make that note.
Of course it doesn’t have to happen. But playing optimally isn’t always the best story. I’m just saying that having seen that particular outcome (just like the burned outcome), I have no particular desire to revisit it. But we already know that the burned outcome, for example, can narratively be very interesting and there’s an argument for playing suboptimally to get it if you’ve got the stomach to do it.
Sure! And most of the time I murder Titus even when I could convince him (because I try not to rub things in his face), because I think the purple makes for a more fun story.
Things can happen because you choose for them to happen. You don’t always have to “win.” I like a good story.
4 Likes
Something else to keep in mind, Julia had basically nobody to talk to outside of the prefect and it’s safe to say any chance that an actual relationship between her and Titus could’ve worked never had a chance when you factored in the situation she was in and she already had a reliable confidant right there. Augusta should be in a much more stable situation by the time this is all over, which ideally means to have more time and space to interact with her betrothed and get used to it and let things flow naturally, and the PC would hopefully be there as a sounding board if she’s having issues. The circumstances are pretty different here
6 Likes
Shattered Eagle: Fall Rise of an Empire Enemies to Lovers Yuri
Uzin is about to get destroyed by an Augustorian-Pharian-Gruthungian-Foederati-Plebeian-Hadati mega alliance 
And Victoria better not ask for too much, I may have killed her mother but I’ve also been incredibly accomodating otherwise, really! Hopefully Victoria’s all-consuming desire to avenge her dead mother doesn’t make family get-togethers too awkward…
4 Likes
Fair enough.
I’m not sure why you’re so certain that not compromising has to end in a bloodbath (I could certainly see that coming to pass depending on if you optimise your stats poorly, fail to gain and/or properly maintain relationships with your allies, etc., but it doesn’t have to be the only possible scenario). I especially have no intention of that happening (and if that unfortunately does end up occurring, that’s on Victoria and Iblin as far as I’m concerned, who instigated this whole civil war in the first place by murdering the sitting Empress).
On my latest playthrough (for example), I have the full support of both the Foederati and Legions (over 90% approval for both), in addition to having strong empire stats (my power is at almost 80%, my stability just over 70%. Admittedly my resources could be higher, sitting at just under 60%, but all things considered that’s a pretty strong set up in my opinion).
I also have the general support of the public (albeit not as strongly as the others at 55%), and the ironclad loyalty of the Praetorian guard (so they’re not likely to be assassinating Augusta anytime soon).
I don’t think I’m being idealistic whatsoever; I fully expect that not everything is going to go smoothly in the war against Victoria and Iblin (and there will still be other factors that could play a key role that we either haven’t encountered or fully played through yet), but I’m actually reasonably confident that my side can not only win, but win decisively (with how I’ve played things so far).
None of this is even taking into account either of the other allies I’ve amassed in the form of Gruthingia and Pharia. If the civil war does end up taking a bigger toll than I hoped for, (assuming we win) then I’ll also have their support in the next fight against the Witch King to supplement my own fighting force.
I feel like I’m actually being rather practical, all things considered. From my perspective, you’re the one confidently making assertions without much actual basis to back them up (and no, using examples from history doesn’t count as evidence).
I do think the fact that plenty of people, yourself included, are having such difficulty balancing their stats in the compromise route is rather telling in how tricky such a thing to pull off successfully actually is.
So, yeah, I stand by my claim that the compromise route (particularly the version where Augusta and Victoria are betrothed) is too idealistic (and not really worth it).
I didn’t say that was my only reason - it was more of a supplementary thing, on top of everything else (of course it would be stupid for that to be my only reason to be against it).
Honestly, there’s no need for all of that condescending drivel.
Can you not strawman me, please?
I wasn’t making the case that I think the current system of hereditary autocracy is great for gender equality/men’s rights - it’s not - rather that going along with a Augusta-Victoria marriage has the potential to reinforce the matriarchy (I straight up asked the author about this on the forum previously, and she agreed that it’s a possibility in such a scenario - I’m not just making up some BS claim).
So you knew what I meant, but still decided instead to make a point against a non-existent argument?
I feel like you’re doing this a lot, taking something small I’ve said and extrapolating it into an argument or position that I’m not actually making, just so that you can try to prove me wrong or whatever.
I admit that I’m likely not as well read-up as some others are in this thread on real-world history, so perhaps I’m not as qualified to talk about some of the subjects presented; I’m just going off what’s shown in the game (combined with my own previous knowledge, thoughts, biases etc.) and making decisions, coming to conclusions etc., based on that.
I’m fine if others disagree with me (it’s just a piece of fiction, after all), but what I don’t really appreciate is the way you’re responding to me at times, which can come across as rather smug and patronising.
I’m going to dip out of this thread for a little while, because I’m honestly done with this whole discussion for the time being.
6 Likes
I’m happy to agree to disagree and let all of this drop. We don’t have to go back and forth any further, and I have no wish to cause ill feelings. I only debate approaches with others to the extent that its fun — if it’s no longer that, then I’m happy to step back
We’ll play the game differently and that’s OK. I wish you well.
2 Likes
I would be spinning in my grave, if I was in one.
Wait until Iblin comes in the room with his own baggage. It will make the Vitallia family dinners look like sunshine and rainbows. Unless you go ahead and finish what we started with her mother and send her other parent to Gaia. Although I really, really doubt she would be fine with the betrothal if both Mom and Dad are gone. Off’d by us, too. A mighty grudge she would have, indeed.
If such a situation arises, may I propose what a fellow Prefect suggested earlier?
The job can always be finished, after all.
4 Likes
”my greatest woe is that the that the empire”
”Twas a weapon I could…”
little mistake or Leta is becoming senile with age
Warfare: 6 Rhetoric: 5 Scholarship: 1 Economics: 4 Subterfuge: 3 Chapter I Bonus Stat: No. Chapter II Bonus Stat: Yes. Victory Clock (Battle for the Spire): 1 (Success at <= 0) Victory Clock (Battle for Kyro): -3 (Success at <= 0) Arcanii Battle Strength: 75 Kyro Status: 3 (0 = Pyrrhic Victory; 1-2 = Incomplete Victory; 3 = Complete Victory) Empire Status: Stability (25) Resources (25) Power (72) Augusta Status: Unburnt Paragon (Warfare
Good for a mostly blind first Run, even i regret wasting the second skill point on subterfuge, didn’t ever need it for an imperial run really.
i liked that you could match you appearance to Augusta for the church scene, was kinda funny, also running a pseudo atheist then meeting an actual goddess was a fun face turn to RP on
2 Likes
Just mistakes, I’ll correct them.
7 Likes
What sort of betrothal would Consentia and the Senate approve of for Augusta?
Not the barbarian prince, i’m sure of that
And our nephew is tecnicamente of to low birth for them
So probably one of leta grandchildren, if posible i asume victoria because that made them have to adopt an heir so break the bloodline of the throne
1 Like