The Senate is just as corrupt and power hungry they could care less about the people, it’s all false sympathy and propaganda. I say let Ceto run it all lmao
9 Likes
There, fixed it for you. Well, it’s not like her actually running it would lead to a different outcome. Leading street gangs can only get one so far.
As for me, I will happily continue to support the supreme authority of the reigning empress for as long as the Senate cannot conceive of a title befitting an illustrious head of state, as is Augusta Vitallia Hevernica. “First Citizen” just doesn’t quite cut it.
6 Likes
Yeah that sounds more accurate though to be fair everyone seems to want to burn Kyro and the Empire itself to the ground.
True you’d think the Senate and the Consul especially would have come up with a more fitting title.
1 Like
Honestly, Ceto is the entire reason I go all in with the Senate route, if only because I feel she’s the only one with the truly revolutionary vision that Iudia desperately needs to survive.
The Barbarian route just solidifies the same institutional failings that are responsible for Iudia’s stagnation and internal rot: bloodright succession and autocracy.
Bloodright succession is the reason why Scilla became the cruel, misanthropic Empress that oversaw a period of stagnation and rampant corruption throughout the Empire: her near death experience at the hands of a rival sibling competing for the throne mentally scarred her. Bloodright succession is why Aite and Invidia became incompetent monsters that started a bloody civil war over a disagreement about who was born first and therefore the rightful heir under primogeniture, a civil war that opened the door for an opportunistic Barracks Empress like Julia to seize power. Bloodright succession is why Iudia can potentially be ruled by a puppet Augusta controlled by a Prefect whose only goal is self-advancement, all because Julia couldn’t be bothered to actually teach her own daughter how to rule. If there’s one lesson I think Shattered Eagle conveys really well, it’s the fact that a frequently fraticidal succession law where you rule based on having the right blood instead of being a qualified elected official is a really stupid method of governance. Siding with the feudal barbarian Kings that derive their legitimacy from blood, rather than elections and the mandate of the people the way the Senate does, feels like you’re not solving this massive issue that’s plagued at least 3 generations of Empresses.
The Imperial Autocracy is also why the millions of commoners living in Iudia have their voice unheard of, as a prefect with an idealism motivation laments. For all of the corruption and chicanery in the Senate, they are at the very least public officials nominally accountable to the people, while the imperial bureaucracy is accountable to nobody except the Empress and her interests. The Prefect MC can be an incredibly corrupt bastard who neglects the good of the Empire for his own self aggrandizement, but as long as Julia trusts him and is willing to let him keep working, he stays regardless of how many people suffer under his management. Compare this to Consentia, who despite being incredibly wealthy and powerful with Attika in her pockets, is forced to compromise and ally with Tribune of the People Ceto to gain enough grassroots support for her reforms. Of course the senatorial election and coalition building process are by no means truly democratic, but I think it’s certainly an improvement over an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy. A government staffed by “elected” public officials >>> an imperial bureaucracy that only answers to an Empress of varying competence. The fact that the first time you meet Antonius is when he’s being openly disdainful of elections and supportive of Julia’s autocracy is therefore a huge turn off.
Consentia’s idea to create a constitution with a strong First Citizen balanced by a strong senate is a lot more appealing to me than the Barbarian status quo, but she is still way too paternalistic and distrustful of plebeian rule for me to really throw in with her vision. The fact that she describes Ceto’s desire for a more populistic Iudia as an “unleashing of the mob’s most base impulses” really reminds you that she’s a matrician who adheres to noblesse oblige because she doesn’t think commoners could take care of themselves were they given a voice. She’s well intentioned, but her class interests prevent her from taking the next step to really overturn the oppressive Iudian social order and liberate the commons from a senatorial oligarchy.
Ceto is really the only one who gets what my MC wants: a pluralistic, radically egalitarian Iudian constitutional empire based upon the centralized institutions of Kyro. She’s bae.
10 Likes
This is a typical sentiment of court-centric superficiality. Interest in titles and baubles over the best interests of the public at large. This is what rule by the corrupt Galeriae has wrought.
We of the Senate prefer substance to style. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a convivium and banquet to get to.
I agree with your critique insofar as Consentia’s ideology feels really Enlightenment.
I’m not sure what the tradition of self-government is in Kyro but if it’s anything like Rome, civic traditions had a long afterlife into the imperial period. After the assemblies were closed the People made their demands to the emperors and consuls in other ways, usually using the circus and theater as venues for delivering the public’s views. This continued into late antiquity, the period this game is inspired by. Roman aristocrats derived all their honor and status from the People — that’s the whole reciprocal exchange that undergirded euergetism — until the autocratic later emperors destroyed classical civic culture that is.
5 Likes
Political routes for Prefect MC to take and historical similarities to Rome aside does anyone else feel slightly bad for Uzin because it seems like he’ll not even get the chance to march on Kyro before the civil war burns the Empire to the ground. It’s honestly wild yet not exactly surprising how everything and everyone is deciding to take on the Empire with how weak it is by this point. Loving all the parallels to the late collapsing Western Roman Empire.
3 Likes
Certainly something I’d expect Tyrant Augusta to express at one point.
I have been considering replacing “First Citizen” to a degree with Principissa due to the awkward sentences that the former has produced when find/replaced with “Empress.” I’ve been testing that out with Chapter VII a little.
It’s been interesting to further flesh out Ceto’s policies and supporters in this coming chapter so far. Let’s be clear that anyone in the cutthroat late antique inspired politics of Shattered Eagle isn’t going to come out looking great by our modern lens, even what people in this world would consider a populist.
So I’ll say she’s certainly a complicated character with her own vision for the future of Iudia which contrasts with Consentia’s in some keys areas, both in political and personal terms. The conflict between the two women will be much more on display in Chapter VII, and a Prefect who sides with the Senate and People will have to decide how to go about balancing those interests.
Yes, these were part of my efforts to assuage a problem I had in presenting the Senate and People and the Foederati to readers.
The Prefect will have a chance to try and decisively put an end to the civil war, through one means or another. And in any case, there are more factors at play in the coming conflict than just armies and schemes, as the last chapter has begun to show…
11 Likes
I should probably make more time to talk to Ceto a bit instead of spending all my time with Consentia. I have a really low opinion of Ceto, but I haven’t gotten to truly hear her take yet. It’s a bit of an opportunity cost bc you can spend time with these people only at the expense of another.
It would be deeply funny if I ended up agreeing with the tribune rather than the consul. Unlikely, but not impossible… perhaps Chapter VII will give me an opportunity to examine that more.
That makes sense. It’s important to show the contrast between them and their different political views — and to make it a little less of a no-brainer to a modern player. As you mention above, the reality is that nobody comes out looking good thru a modern lens. This is a different world: nobody is objectively correct and good (nor in modern history either).
Excellent. It is a nice title and does fit a little better in some contexts as a replacement for empress.
1 Like
NGL I think people are a bit too optimistic in trusting a literal actual mob boss to deliver a ‘radically egalitarian’ Iudia. She’s not a communist, she very much has self-interested ambitions of her own. NGL part of me thinks that keeping Consentia and Ceto allied rather than letting one crush the other will ultimately bring about the strongest Iudia. One neither fully beholden to the mob (the Kyrian mob to be exact, Ceto doesn’t exactly speak for the provinces) nor the Senatorial estates.
In support of this, Principissa is just a more fun word than ‘First Citizen’ imo.
16 Likes
As long as you’re not paying too much attention to what it sounds in Finnish… 
(I mean, yeah, I’m used to it… a lot of English and Latin sounds vaguely toilet-humory or otherwise utterly ridiculous in Finnish.)
Mostly, of course, people of a certain station.
The comitia centuriata was ludicrously weighted in favor of the equites and the first class, and it was these people who would be airing their political grievances in the Imperial period, for the most part. Rome was at best ever a timocracy.
3 Likes
So… a communist.
1 Like
there are not really that many oportunitys to advance in ludias socity.
you either are born noble and are part of senatorial class or you go in some imperial service and pray that somone from high acknowledge you. you probably need both of them to suceed.Fact that ceto managed to get so much power from her background is a small miracle.
i would even say that fact that ceto dose not come from traditional routes of power makes her much more likly to try and reform system. even on pragmatic level she dose not really get anything from upholding it. and even if you say that shes not geniuen about helping people only person who actauly trys to improve peoples lifes is her.
Lets say she won even in that case her best move would be securing populations loyality. She hates senate has not ties with foderati army is made up with either impreial or senator loyalist so even that would be hostile to her. Reform for her is not question of whant its about necasity she must turn her popular support to actualy power and only real way it can happen is actauly giving people power.
i also personaly like her. people may call her mob boss but like all other options are just worse
1 Like
Do you suppose there were that many of them? The first class dominated the first eighteen centuries precisely because their numbers weren’t diluted: the theory goes if they all voted the same way, a majority of centuries would’ve been reached. But this is a couple thousand people, who voted for curule offices and could carry the day if they voted in lockstep only. Be careful of excessive formalism — Cicero and 19th century scholars may have wanted only the rich to matter, but that’s not the reality.
be careful not to commit the immense snobbery you’re accusing the Romans of. Even at Rome alone, the first class cannot carry the day. They don’t dominate the other two voting assembles. They are a tiny fraction of the 200,000 entitled to the annona by law. Do you suppose that the masses allegedly bribed by bread and circuses are in fact all the rich? What a curious inversion this would be.
In the circus Maximus alone, a couple thousand people would barely be noticed. We’re told the people made their demands known by mass chanting and a call-and-response to the emperor. Do you think it was a narrow band of rich people that provided the sheer mass that scared emperors? Do you think it was the RICH who were hurling abuse at Diocletian for acting like an arrogant god? Was it the rich who burned town the houses of the city prefect during a grain shortage?
And this is just Rome. The theater and circus were venues for political voice all over the empire, because each city was constituted as a republic. Do you think it was the rich that the candidates of Pompeii were offering bread to for votes? Do you think it was the rich who cheered (or rioted) in the circuses all over the empire if benefactions weren’t made? Here I’m including the local rich even though you focused on those at Rome, because the few thousand equestrians of the Republican first class are like a drop of water in an empire of millions.
We have documentary and inscriptional evidence from all over the Empire on the political engagement of the populus of each civitas and the role they played. Don’t focus unduly on Mommsen-esque formalism and a narrow focus on the kind of people the old theorists WANTED to be the only ones that mattered. It’s Cicero’s dream that only the first class mattered, but the guy wrote a lot of fanfic.
Look at the evidence a lot more closely — you might note that some formalists might be caring only about the rich a lot more than the Romans actually did. There’s a lot more evidence of popular participation than all that.
3 Likes
Yeah, I definitely overstated my position there, because Ceto’s most assuredly not acting entirely in the interests of entire lower class of Iudia. Even ignoring the fact that she’s willing to let the common people in Seyet starve just to make sure the Kyrian public doesn’t get less rations, she also loses opinion of you if you choose to fund the watch in chapter 2, the only option that actually increases public favor. If you express that you don’t believe she’s being altruistic in the den, she straight up admits the fact that if the Kyrian mob is empowered the way she wants, she’s assuredly going to be elected “peoples’ representative” due to her experience (and reading between the lines, no small amount of corruption and intimidation). She’s not even a liberal, much less a communist.
I guess it would be more accurate to say that her ambitions overlap the most with my vision for an Iudia that cares about and empowers “the people.” Only the people that compose the mobs of major urban centers like Kyro, sure, but progress has got to start somewhere right? And while there’s no justification for Ceto’s criminal activities (which include getting people addicted to opium that will destroy their lives), I also think it’s important to recognize that the first thing Ceto requests from the Prefect is to increase welfare spending so thousands of Kyrians don’t starve to death. There’s undoubtedly self-interest to this, but if her self-interest genuinely improves the quality of life of the average urban commoner and enfranchises them to at least a minimal degree the way Ceto envisions, then I think it’s at least worth considering the possibility of holding your nose and working with the ruthless mob boss that, genuine or not, is helping the commons of Iudia the most out of any power player. Is working with Ceto really that much worse than continuing to act as Prefect of the State for Julia for years after the Burning of Cadanu? It doesn’t excuse her horrible criminal empire, but I think Ceto deserves a bit of slack here.
Regarding Consentia, I think Ceto actually summarizes the best why sympathy towards the Senate is so rare and why I don’t want to compromise with them on a Senate and People route.
“The problem with Con is she’s a parasite just like the rest. She’ll do her ‘reforms,’ don’t get her wrong, but she’ll keep everything in place that crushes us into the mud. Once she’s had her fill of change, she’ll tidy herself off and call it a day. Y’know I call her Con for a reason, yeah? She’s a con, she’s a trick. If you trust her and that she’ll ‘fix Iudia,’ you’re the sucker she wants.”
The description of Consentia as a parasite is really apt as a reflection on how the Senate is perceived as a leech contributing nothing of value to Iudia. The foederati are the ones holding the line against Gruthungian incursions and have pretty reasonable initial demands like “give us Holy Fire and supplies so we can do our job to protect you” and “fulfill your promise to give us land.” The urban mob represents the workers and servants that form the backbone of the Iudia and the people that the government is supposed to take care of, and Ceto’s initial demand to increase the grain dole so they don’t starve is appealing both morally and pragmatically in this sense. The Senate represents a conservative landowning aristocracy that would love to get away with not paying taxes or contributing militarily to the empire, and Consentia’s initial demand to give the Senate control of civillian appointments neither strengthens the country’s defense nor directly improves the wellbeing of its citizens in a way that would make it easier to swallow the naked self-interest like with Antonius or Ceto. Even the main appeal of the Senate, their desire for government by consensus and a constitution to prevent autocracy, is poisoned by the fact that Consentia’s not going to take her reforms far enough to enfranchise men and the urban commoners the way Ceto intends. Right now, even as someone sympathetic to the ideals of the Senate, it’s really hard for me to justify compromising with them instead of just going all in with Ceto.
6 Likes
Stats:
Summary
Victory Clock (Battle for the Spire): 3 (Success at <= 0)
Victory Clock (Battle for Kyro): 6 (Success at <= 0)
Arcanii Battle Strength: 90
Kyro Status: 1 (0 = Pyrrhic Victory; 1-2 = Incomplete Victory; 3 = Complete Victory)
Well, this was delightful so far. Reminded me of Tyranny quite a bit. 
Build was Subterfuge/Rhetoric to emulate a proper demagogue snake, subterfuge carried a lot, but rhetoric had very few uses. I think I’ll go Subterfuge/Warfare for a proper Kyros the Overlord: Origins run. Oh, and will have to do alternate history run where I am nice to Augusta. Poor kid.
Right. Off to play Tyranny again. Also sharpen the spikes with Victoria’s and Iblin’s names on them. And speaking of those, can we also hunt and quarter filthy traitors who had one job and still botched it? I hope we can, my spike arrangement could do with a few more heads. 
7 Likes
Rhetoric has some nice checks but i dont think it synergises well with Subterfuge. you kind of whant to ahcive difrent things with these 2 stats. Rhetoric is alls about maiking people get along and making them work despite there difrences. Subterfuge is opposite of that. IT is also much more usfull on senate path then foderati.
i would say Subterfuge will go well with warfare as you said or economy (economy is just good if you dont whant to rule over ruins)
Economic MC single handedly postpoining fall of roman empire 
.
will us making alince with gurthundi backfire on us if foderati desert? If foderati join victoria i think it would make sense them for to back her over us.
3 Likes
You should, it’s one of my fav RPGs 
.
No, that won’t happen. Gaizaz’s confederation is a separate polity to the foederati that the Empire is in treaty with, consisting of largely distinct Gruthungian peoples (ones who some of the foederati have warred with in the past, a fact that Antonius brings up if you ask him in Chapter V.) While there certainly is a relation, hence why the resolution of the Gruthungian conflict does affect Antonius and his foederati, Gaizaz will not be joining with Victoria or breaking an alliance due to a foederati revolt.
Now what happens after the defeat of Uzin Khan and a common enemy is no longer looming? That’s a question for the longer term future of the Empire…and the epilogue.
20 Likes
Tyranny is great. Wish it got more love, and a sequel. Or even more then a single dlc that only focused on half of the companions.
12 Likes
I love tyranny so much, it’s the only heavely narratif game that make you play the vilain side. The universe is also so damn interesting I still want to know who is Kyros after all those years 
4 Likes