Relics 3: Ashes for Gold UPDATED 15th October, Final Update, see Post 741 for details

Thoughts on ethnicity lock:

I’m of two very different minds on this. On one hand, I completely understand the issues with forcing the MC to be at the absolute least 7/8 white and Irish. I definitely feel that there’s an issue for players who would prefer having a more varied way to play as their Spillane.

On the other hand, I think it’s really cool that there’s a game that allows you to play as so many different ethnicities and have it actually make an impact (even a minor one) on gameplay. I could count the other games in the COG library that allow me to play as a Jewish/Slavic/Native character on… maybe not one, but very few hands. It really goes a long way towards helping you feel immersed.

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OK gang, new update just went live! It incorporates the following changes:

  • Many typos and small issues fixed in the earlier chapters.

  • The last “After the War” section has been added to the end of the Pax Britannica epilogue.

  • The bug with sealing the María relationship in Interlude 3 has now been fixed.

  • Specializations have been rebalanced (this pretty much just involved adding a few more Historian and Traveler options - I think the other two were already pretty well-represented).

  • Grandpas! Now every grandpa gets a moment.

Please lemme know if there are any more issues. I’m also curious to know whether the recent fixes from last week have made the Endgame more viable for “altruistic”-type players, which was one of the concerns expressed above.

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Re: the ethnicity lock (perspective check: I’m a white American male whose only potential “minority” box to be checked is that I have predominantly Catholic heritage as opposed to Protestant, so it probably means less to me to be well-represented in these games), I think your decision was ultimately forgivable. Obviously, as you said in the retrospective, in hindsight it wouldn’t be too difficult to have other potential Spillane ethnicities, but the important thing is that you didn’t know this at the time. There’s a lot to be said for keeping your first (iirc?) ChoiceScript work simple and manageable. Who’s to say that if you included the other options, you might have gotten put off keeping account of everything during a tricky bit of coding, gotten frustrated, and maybe put the project off to the side for the time being? Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good, or however that old saying goes.

You put out an entire, high-quality, content-heavy trilogy in the span of a little over two years. That is an achievement to be proud of. You said in the retrospective that you’re a lot more comfortable with the coding now and probably could have put in multiple ethnicities with little issue, and I look forward to seeing it in your next work. But don’t beat yourself up over not having one in Relics.

(I’m aware I promised a more overarching feedback of the game. In my defense, I’m a big Philadelphia sports fan and it’s been a rather busy month in that regard.)

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So out of curiosity, I’m gonna stick a couple of polls here for people who read the demo: favourite chapter in Relics 3, and favourite game in the trilogy.

Favourite Book 3 chapter:

  • Chapter 1 (LA / Nevada)
  • Chapter 2 (Egypt)
  • Chapter 3 (Oxford)
  • Chapter 4 (Caribbean)
  • Chapter 5 (Peru)
  • Chapter 6 (Japan)

0 voters

Favourite book in trilogy:

  • Relics of the Lost Age.
  • Relics 2: The Crusader’s Tomb.
  • Relics 3: Ashes For Gold.

0 voters

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I was torn between Chapter 4 (Caribbean) because of Zhu and Chapter 2 (Egypt) because it reminds me of Book 1. Chose Egypt in the end, sorry Zhu :smiling_face_with_tear:

Favourite book in trilogy:

Book 1. Because with this book started my adventures. It was marvelous. All danger, drama, action, more drama and action and love. Yes, I’m in love with your stories. Thank you for the trilogy. :rose:
It’s been a damn good ride. :desert: :mount_fuji: :parachute: :shark: :woman_vampire:

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One thing I noticed is that the epilogue shit romanced characters are all generic.
For example, if I don’t romance Cleo she will fight for the civil rights in the US, but if I romance her no mention is made about that. I think even if romanced she would fight for the civil rights.

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My favourite is the sun, sea and Zhu chapter and not just because of Zhu I did like the whole pirates of the carribean vibe and it is a welcome refresher after the heavy chapter 3.

I like all of them, but probably book 1 and 3 most, although I did like the wild ride with Zhu in silly mode of game 2.

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I love books with good ROs…i liked maria’s character, the love hate relationship with mc was what made me read it.
But after mc gets married is when its all generic with all ros.
So yea my fav has to be book 1 then 2.

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Alright, I’ve finished what I think will probably be my final playthrough of the demo.

Thoughts on specific topics in the second half of the game
  • The decision of whether or not to endorse Cleo as an agent seems sort of meaningless—as far as I can tell, it only ever affects her relationship with Spillane, and nothing else, which feels a bit off given that the whole of Chapter 5 goes to great lengths to force Spillane to reckon with the potential pros and cons of that choice. Not sure exactly how it would manifest, but it feels like it should have at least a small consequence somewhere down the line.
  • I’d been feeling somewhat apathetic about the idea of spending time with Remy instead of a wedding, but after doing it, I actually like the addition! I don’t think it had occurred to me before that he isn’t a companion in any major chapters like all the other ROs (+Sam), so I actually found it surprisingly refreshing to see him get some substantive screentime to himself. Sometimes, it’s actually nice to have to spend time with some characters you wouldn’t normally choose to—that’s one of the things I like about the way you’ve formatted these games in general, I think.
  • Appreciated the addition of the conversation with Sabine in Chapter 6—gave a good amount of insight into her character that actually did came in handy when trying to get through to her during the endgame. …Also, it reminded me that she was related to Albrecht, which was a detail I’d previously forgotten, but that felt meaningful in terms of tying back to previous books.
  • The addition of endgame forces from high altruism definitely helped. I still haven’t crunched any numbers (and I don’t think I’m going to at this point), but just speaking anecdotally, it definitely felt like I had a strong chance of success (and ultimately I got away without any deaths, other than Stevo), while still feeling earned, so I do think it’s better balanced now.
  • Having the protagonist’s love interest die (a pretty huge deal, narratively speaking) if you let Maxie live feels a little extreme to me. While it is signposted that leaving him alive will mean you’ll continue to be in danger from him, it feels sort of, I dunno, innately unsatisfying, I guess, that after a triumphant win against the Nazis, Maxie of all people is the one that pulls the rug out from under you and robs you of a fully happy ending, at a point in the game where you can’t really do anything about it. I’m not really sure exactly what could be done about this, because it does feel like there should be some consequence to leaving him alive, but this feels disproportionate to me. Maybe the RO could just sustain a lasting injury or something? I dunno.
Overall thoughts on the chapters

I think probably unsurprisingly, my favorite chapter is Oxford, as I’m always an advocate for chapters that mix up the formula and offer something different and novel, and Oxford does exactly that. It’s a great change of pace, a fun exploration of Spillane and Maria’s past (previously only hinted at in pretty vague terms), and an intriguing mystery with a number of interesting characters.

I will say that I still think the mystery element could be stronger, and would benefit from not being fully solvable just from the one conversation at the end. But I’ve said my piece on all that, so I won’t get into it again.

Re: other chapters…it’s interesting to me that Peru and Japan are scoring so low on the poll right now, because they were actually probably my second and third favorites! Maybe I’m just a sucker for situations where you have to handle a dysfunctional group of people with opposing worldviews?

But I thought both of these chapters featured some pretty interesting and compelling predicaments—in Peru especially, the moral/pragmatic issue of how much sympathy Luis deserves (being genuinely unpleasant and morally challenged…but possibly redeemable) and how much you can count on him (since he causes trouble, but is also necessary to the mission overall), and the issue of how to grapple with Cleo’s justifiable but unconstructive hostility, and whether or not this quality would make her a bad agent, I thought made for some great social drama.

I really enjoyed Luis’s character arc, in particular, where he at first seems sympathetic but distasteful, then reveals some genuinely objectionable things about his past that make you wonder if he really does deserve your ire, and finally comes to a point where you see all his worst qualities on display, at the same time that you’re challenged with convincing him that he can still choose to be good—and then if you do, he really does find a way to redeem himself. (And that has an effect on Cleo’s perspective, too! It all ties together!)

Reminded me of Tibet from the first game a little, while still being its own thing.

Japan I have less specific things to say about, but I enjoyed that it felt different from other chapters, while still touching on familiar situations that I always enjoy (the aforementioned navigation of dysfunctional social dynamics, connecting with local cultures). We don’t really interact with soldiers much despite the war backdrop, so I found it quite enlightening to see how more grounded, battle-worn characters would perceive someone like Spillane who always has a super-special top-secret mission that only they can do, without ever having to personally endure the full horrors of war.

Egypt and the Caribbean, conversely, felt like sort of a return to basics, similar in tone and function to chapters from previous games, and maybe that’s why people liked them? (Or maybe it’s because these are the two chapters that feature Tran, who is clearly the most popular character in the game.) For me, though, they felt a little vanilla—not bad by any means, I still enjoyed them, but they didn’t really feel narratively or mechanically distinct to me, in terms of their overall conception.

I think Chapter 1 sits somewhere around the middle of the pack for me; I thought the setting and backdrops were fun and different, but I don’t think anything really stood out to me as, well, outstanding. Solid, though.

And I’ve already commented on it, but I’ll reiterate that I quite like the endgame, particularly now that it feels a little less punishing.

Thoughts on this game compared to the others

This is actually a tough comparison to make because I think all three games have strengths and weaknesses; none of them stand to me as overwhelmingly better or worse than the other two, overall.

I think the second game edges out as my favorite mostly because I really did love the overall structure of the race format, the way different competitors would weave in and out of the story, the fact that they were of varying levels of morality and had different levels of willingness to cooperate. Just felt fun all the way through.

With that said, I believe I expressed an opinion in the last thread that I felt that individual chapters were weaker and less distinct than in the first game, and I think I stand by that. Looking back, I definitely do not even remember a lot of them, other than the vampire chapter and the Germany chapter (though the former of the two does remain a highlight). So although Relics 2 is probably my favorite, it’s not a runaway lead—I do think that the first and third games both tended to have stronger individual chapters, or at least ones that were more memorable.

With regards to the first game vs. the third, I think maybe the first game had higher highs—Tibet and Congo are still probably my favorite chapters in the whole series, though Oxford, Peru, and the aforementioned chapter from the second game are close contenders—but it also had lower lows IMO. Like I laid out in the previous section of this comment, I don’t think there were any chapters in this game that I disliked, they all felt high-quality in general, even the ones that weren’t my favorites.

With that in mind, I think it’s probably accurate to say that I liked this game more than the first overall, even if I liked parts of the first game more than any specific segments from the second and third.

So I guess my order would go 2, then 3, then 1. But they’re all good games!

Anyway, I think that’s it. Congrats again on finishing the trilogy and I’ll be interested to play whatever you end up working on next.

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Thanks so much, that’s all very helpful, as I move towards putting together the next (which might end up being the final) update. Lots to think about!

In terms of Cleo as agent, it leads to varying dialog at the wedding and (I think!) Endgame, and it does have one possible mechanical quirk. if Cleo’s an MI6 agent, then she always has to come along for the Endgame, even if she has a crappy relationship with you, because her bosses order her to! I guess that’s handy for players who want Cleo to be in the endgame because they value her skills, but who also don’t really like her. You don’t have to be nice to her to get her to come along for the ending, you just have to recommend her for the job!

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Hm, I see, I missed the thing about her being ordered to join you in the endgame. I’m pretty sure I was close enough to her for her to come anyway, but I guess that could be a factor for other players that may not be.

Still, I would have liked to see some indication of how well she was fitting into the role, seeing as that’s a big sticking point in the choice Spillane has to make. Not necessarily a definitive “you made the right/wrong call in getting her the job”, but something to give the player a sense of closure on what I felt was a genuinely tough decision. Anderson specifically stresses the importance of Spillane’s assessment, and it comes up many times in Chapter 5, but it’s never really made to feel important after that.

I suppose it just feels weird to me that the consequences of that choice are only really reflective of Cleo’s relationship to Spillane (even the endgame thing, since the only difference there is why she chooses to come), there’s not really any exploration of how this affects Cleo’s own impact on the war, or how we ought to feel about it after playing a pivotal role in how things turned out.

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I went for Oxford and Relics 2, myself. Here’s my reasoning

Oxford: First, it’s the Maria chapter where she has to publicly behave like you’re a couple. This, honestly, would be enough on its own, but even without that it would still be my favorite chapter. I like how Anderson is all “…just please don’t shoot up Oxford like you do everywhere else, I am begging you.” I like the puzzles in it. I really like the ending, where Winter is David, who is never listed as one of the suspects. It’s a nice change of pace from all the running and gunning. I’d like it if the mystery were a bit harder to solve, but I feel like it’s probably better off if it remains more accessible, especially considering how important the outcome can be to your finale.

Relics 2: I like the race structure and the different travel methods a lot, especially the fact that it’s not scripted and you can lose it. I like the horror chapter and the Virmire scenario. I like heisting a museum with Dominique. All this would be enough to make it my overall favorite, but tbh my favorite thing about it is probably the high amount of Maria encounters. The constant verbal sparring when you meet, cheating at poker, finding out what’s in the journal, making the deal with her.

As a bit of a tangent, that kind of interaction with her is what makes her feel like the most fleshed out RO in the series, imo. You get more time with the others, since they can accompany you for all of the second story, but it all feels kinda sidekicky to me? Like, you meet them and then you’re instantly adventure buddies and maybe even in love. For most of the first two games, though, Maria’s cast as the opposition and has a measure of independence that the others lack. Makes her seem more like an equal and less like your plucky sidekick.

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Wait, you can? O_o

o_O

I speculated* you could get, like, murdered by the priests, Gainza, or Maria at the end and that was it. Oh, and by the Russian in the train.

*I refuse to lose to any of these three shit people out of sheer spite

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Oh yeah, there are multiple losing endings in Relics 2!

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Basically, you can choose to let Maria win if you are romancing her, or Gainza can beat you to it and win, or Gainza can win but die, in which case his assistant (his son) gets the prize.

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Huh, the things we learn.

I didn’t even know there was a way for Gainza to NOT die. Maria always shoots him in my playthroughs.

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There’s a Relics 2 ending guide somewhere in the old thread which talks you through all the permutations, if you’re interested.

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IIRC, you need to accept Maria’s deal and then spare Gaiza, she will not shoot him if she is with you.

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I have a question, is there any other endings other than the british rules the world ending and the ending where sam writes an obituary for you? or are these the only endings?

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there’s like 3 more atleast other than those

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