62

No, no no! Ugh, I was just waiting for this cis assumption. It happens every time I try and talk about this. No! Listen! Being trans is not about your genitals or your body, for Pete’s sake! Okay? Alright.

You should have a choice to be a trans man or woman, being trans. Why?

Because of all those things I JUST mentioned up top!

Being trans is in the community. Just like you can have a black character, but when they mention nothing to do with being black, with being part of the culture and community that creates and nurtures that identification, it’s not worth it, and it’s harder to identify with them (specifically I’m thinking of the big Vivienne debate around Dragon Age: Inquisition).

Being trans is a part of us not because of our dysphoria or our oppression but how we struggle and come together as a community. How we interact and present and learn from eachother. It is a cultural identity to be trans! That is what separates us from the trans people of the ancient eras.

6 Likes
63

That’s obviously incoherent, of course. The one thing that distinguishes ‘trans’ from ‘cis’ in any philosophically consistent sense is a mismatch between the self-image and the physical body.

3 Likes
64

This is “gender dysphoria” and not all trans people have it.

For all your “this is obviously incoherent” and “what I’m saying is philosophically consistent” you won’t sit down and listen to me as a trans person talking about trans people.

Roses, another trans person, seems to have the same idea.

4 Likes
65

I’m always willing to listen, regardless of a person’s status. Assertions of identity without a basis for that identity, though, aren’t worth much - after all, there are people who will tell you with full sincerity that they’re cats. Mind-body mismatch provides an intelligible basis on which to make meaningful distinctions between people, and also happens to be the historical and philosophical foundation for the state of being you’re claiming - or at least, the modern iteration of it. If you’re discarding that, I don’t know what’s informing your distinctions.

1 Like
66

Perhaps your assumptions about what it means to be trans are not correct - especially if you’re being solely informed by what you hear in colloquial discourse.

I am not trans and I would not assume to be an expert on the topic, having no personal experience with what it means to be trans. Perhaps you should feel the same way?

4 Likes
67

Okay, so a dismissal of coping identities, otherkin, etc…

And… oh god, sorry. Didn’t know I was dealing with some sort of… what do they call 'em now? Is it still truscum? Transmedicalists? Yikes. Big yikes.

Anyway, I’ve had enough experience with these kinds of people to know where this is going, and it’s not going to be civilised. It seems Roses had the foresight to drop out of the chat when ve had the chance, so I’m going to follow suit. Bye, comrades.

2 Likes
68

Presumably you’re gone, but if you want to be listened to and taken seriously outside of self-chosen circles, it’s very useful to be able to lay out a case, rather than run off with a zinger. Indeed, I’m rather convinced that one of the causes of the Western world’s continuing political atomization is the ease of doing just that - deciding that any disagreement is a sign of the Enemy, and retreating to one’s internet-based bubble of consensus.

3 Likes
69

That’s a disgusting term and you know it. You proclaim yourself the voice of transgender people and yet you call those genuinely wanting to discuss differing opinions foul names. You claim others are offensive but you aren’t ashamed to blatantly brand others with such abhorrent titles.

Yikes. Big yikes.

To return to the topic at hand, we authors are trying very hard to include more transgender options in our stories and games. We are trying very hard to understand how we might go about this while being as sensitive and authentic as possible without offending others.

We are asking for help, here and on several other threads in the CoG forum. We want what you want. We are only asking for help in attaining it.

9 Likes
70

For bagel defence, I understand what they were trying to explain and I see how it was brushed aside.

Just taking an example of the latest posts, Bagel brought examples of what could be done to include trans characters without making it a problem but this was largely ignored to instead focus on telling them what is and isnt a trans. Their reaction might have been big but their opinion and arguments alway end up being deconstructed and used against them instead of being listenend.

I wont push this because its not my argument and I shouldnt speak for others but come on guys you say you want to listen but it feels like want your point across more than anything. Every good point they brought up is ignored, the rest is used to attack them and I feel like it happen a lot. Wouldnt that piss you guys off too?

It just remind me of the trap argument there have been on the beast and humans wip thread. A trans person is being told what a trans is by non trans.

If you guys are not satisfied by bagel answers then I encourage you guys to find another trans individual willing to discuss their experience but I fear the result would not be that different.

Dont answer to this, its not a call for arguing. I’m just tired of peoples telling others what they are.

Also dashingdon, I know you feel the need to precise your trans friend help you on your project, and I am not saying you are mean because I dont know you much, but you will find out that being respectful and listening will alway be better than mentioning your contacts. At the limit, and I am not saying you are like that, it remind me of racist peoples saying they have a black friend and it leave me with a weird feeling more than anything. Maybe you should ask them to come on here and speak for themselve!

TLDR: Cant we just listen and discuss instead of arguing with a trans individual about what a trans is? Shouldnt that be something to be argued between trans instead of against trans?

14 Likes
71

Agreed. Let’s keep this civil and productive everyone.

3 Likes
72

Since things have calmed down a bit, I’ll try talking about how I feel.

Personally, I do love seeing options to be trans and non-binary. It means a lot to me to have my gender identity validated in some form, because my gender identity is something that I know would be ignored if I ever did come out, and part of that is because of the way I look combined with the way I dress. I like existing. :innocent:

I think there are many good ways to handle it. You can have the protagonist choose to label themself in dialogue, and avoid explicit references to the protagonist being a man or woman because of what they have in their pants or the way they act and dress, or you can make it an important aspect of the game and include explicit references to many gender identities and pronouns.

A good example of either game would be Tin Star , like @Dominic mentioned, and The Sea Eternal, which has been referenced by several people across the thread so far.

And there are many bad ways to handle it. Redemption Season, while its heart was in the right place, is an example that everyone can use, though the dialogue around it makes me uncomfortable for reasons that don’t have to do with this right now.

The big issue for me is when the game is set up to assume you’re cis, in a sense. I’ve seen WIPs where the protagonist starts of naked and “it’s clear to everyone that you’re a…”, and I’ve seen WIPs where the protagonist directly alludes to them having genitalia that matches the traditional concept of gender identity. I hate those games,

If a game has an actual reason to why a character has to be defined as a man or woman in the beginning because of the culture in the story or whatever, then I would like to have options where the protagonist is established as not entirely feeling comfortable with the identity they were born with, and later in the game have an option to identify as trans and/or nonbinary. As far as I know, no current COG or hosted game include this.

12 Likes
73

But Lords of Aswick,infinity series and study in Steam Punk force you gender and role but if it’s portrays homosexual love affair in a believable way for the era of the game. I would be fine if I was stuck into a roll of transgender binary person if it made sense to the story. There was a very famous transgender Roman Emperor during the crisis the starter that I cannot remember the name for life of me.

Speaking of non binary genders there is a character class that look said that philosophical a pen and paper RPG called dark alleys

2 Likes
74

Good point! I dont know for others but I dont mind being forced in a gender if the story is well written, interesting and allow a relationship for all sexualities. if everything is approached in a good manner then I dont think there would be any problem. Only thing would be to warn in advance that this is not a story that will allow you to chose your gender.

And who know, maybe at some point there will be a COG title where the MC is canonicaly trans. Even better if it was written by trans writter! Hopefully it could help peoples understand the struggles and relate to the trans community better.

Of course a game with a trans MC dont need to turn around social issues either because after all, I dont think they all want to think about this all the time either but just the fact that the MC is trans could be nice. I cant think of any game where the main character canonicaly was.

The only thing is that this type of game could not be made without direct intervention from trans individuals, and I mean in the plural. Not everyone think the same way and it would be wrong to think its any different here.

Edit: Wait wasnt the sea eternal MC genderfluid or something of the kind? My memory might be wrong tho.

2 Likes
75

At my (very enthusiastic) persuasion (read: me yelling excitedly until Havie gets the message), @Havenstone’s Choice of Rebels saga will have this option in later games, once you become acquainted with the binary and nb trans people of other countries.

Steampunk and magical fantasy land are not eras. They’re genres. They have no reason to portray anything believably, let alone disgusting oppression. If you’re going to do oppression in a game, and sell that game as escapism, it’s not going to go over well.

COG seems to do that already, what with the “play as male or female!” or “play as male, female, or non-binary” tags in the demos of their games.

If my friend Mel got back to me, ever… I’d do it. I’d totes do it. I have a very nice trans (non truscum) community of friends. I would do it for them. I love them and I would love to make something where they could be trans and be happy. I would at least try.

But mostly for Mel. I’d need their permission and guidance. I owe them a gift as payment for something a long time ago.

5 Likes
76

I am pretty sure @Sashira the author of “Monsters of New Heaven High” (a WIP) talked about that they wanted to do something like that in their game. But I agree with you. There are a few games that start at the beginning of the life from the MC and a few of them even allow a nonbinary choice but I personally started to question my gender in my late teens, so I would love to see a game where I could later change the gender choice I had to make in the beginning of the game.

One of the MCs from “The 3Games” is canonically trans if I remember corectly

2 Likes
77

It’s up to the author. Why do you think Song of Ice and Fire? You know why the fantasy setting yes but the world feels plausible and how do you portray plausibility you can show the world’s Beauty and its warts and all. Silver example even have a kingdom that’s very much based on classic of feudalism with all its oppressive patriarchal norms. Then once you travel out east or west or north yourself wherever you may be it will have trained her non binary character and that could be a cultural aspect. But least the world will feel more plausible.

78

I argued hard for the option of a transgender protagonist in A Study in Steampunk. Someone like James Barry, because I would have loved to play that game with a transgender character. Of all the Choice of Games that’s the one I really badly wanted the option of a transgender protagonist.

I also argued for the possibility of a female protagonist, even if it meant using a woman who disguises herself as a man.

Every Choice of Game must allow for you to play as at least male or female, and offer a choice of sexuality. That’s in the guidelines. Hosted Games don’t have that limit.

1 Like
79

Oh well I meant hosted game. I forget the two are separated sometimes.

Edit: You just made me discover dr James Barry and I must thank you. It really is a remarkable person and he’s a new hero figure to me now.

80

A Song of Fire and Ice is a very realistic low to dark fantasy. People don’t read it for escapism - they don’t want to be there (or at least most people) - but are alienated enough to enjoy it.

81

This discussion became a little heated last night. Reading back on it, I believe much of it was born of frustration between those attempting to explain, those attempting to understand, and those driven to champion their viewpoint. But despite how intense the discussion became, there is insight to be gleaned from it. Perhaps not as much on topic, unfortunately, but more about who each of us are as people and what we as those people believe.

That said, the only point I wish to address is that mentioning my trans friend is akin to a racist saying “but I have a black friend.” I didn’t bring my friend up in this thread in that manner, I simply said I feel obligated to remark that I am eliciting the help of a transgender friend when I mention that I am writing a transgender character. I would never use her in defense of my own beliefs or ignorance, but in my experience mentioning the fact that she is helping me write a trans character in context does generally help to allay concerns about a cis author undertaking this sensitive subject.

This is near exactly how the intro to my story The Burden starts out. It pains me to hear that this approach is something you hate - not that you hate it, of course, but that I have used it without even considering that it might be offensive. If you would help me fix my intro, I would be grateful for any advice you might give. Otherwise, if it is too sensitive a topic or you would rather not be involved, I understand and will seek others to help. But thank you for bringing it to my attention.

The issue here, I think, is that if you do not write the game as gender-locked then you are expected to allow for an array of genders or you are being non-inclusive. The option feels too restrictive because there’s no middle ground: it’s either cut everyone out or write everyone in. Even the commonly used boy, girl, or other in many of the current games could very well be construed as offensive.

Then we run into the issue of too many cooks in the kitchen. Even the most like-minded individuals will have differing opinions, and some of those opinions will be contrary to one another.

In writing The Burden I ended up offending some people while trying to take into consideration the needs and opinions of other people. It became so frustrating at, in the end, I threw up my hands and walked away.

I’ve come back around to it now but my mindset has changed: do what I can to allay concerns and try to be accommodating but stop allowing those efforts to impede progress. Some people will be offended no matter how hard I try, and it’s either give up entirely or press on while trying to shake off the shame and distress of being regarded as cis scum or truscum or what have you.

I just want to write. It shouldn’t be this difficult, should it?

3 Likes