This is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at the individuals themselves. Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes the thread to derail.
Please keep posts centered on the topic and debate the points being made, and not centered on the people making them. Reply to posts topically, please do not reply at others personally.
Personal comments lead to friction and flaming.
Please remember that we can always agree to disagree.
Finally, if you see disrespectful posts please do not reply to them. Rather please use the report feature and let forum staff de-escalate friction.
I wonât suppose to know what life another person has lived, but I find in all these âbut realism!!â arguments, most of these people are speaking from an outside perspective of the topic. âRealismâ is not an excuse to keep brutalizing women in fiction (cause you know thatâs always the reason people go for that line of defence)
And when they talk about if it should be included in a story or not, they never consider that, hey, it does happen in real life and quite often so maybe there are people among us as we speak who have experienced exactly what we are talking about. But they care more about getting their own opinion on the subject out there and once again the voices of those people go ignored.
Yes, rape happens in real life. I know very well; itâs happened to me. Abuse? I⌠somewhat hesitate to admit it might be a thing thatâs happening to me now. Actually, Iâm not even arguing it shouldnât ever be brought up in fiction. I enjoy stories that explore sexual trauma and when my head is a mess, I find it very cathartic to write about it as well. But there are people who have been through exactly what I have and really, really do not want to see it in fiction. Itâs distressing at best, outright dangerous for them at worst. As such, they want to avoid it like the plague and thatâs okay. Whatâs healthy for them is different from whatâs healthy for me.
But just because those people are saying, âmaybe donât include subjects like rape and abuse just for the sake of itâ doesnât mean theyâre asking for everything to be perfect and happy. There are others ways to include angst and drama without retraumatizing victims. And if people DO want a game where things are okay and pleasant, why is that bad? Escapism isnât a bad thing. Itâs a life-saver for some people.
In any case, I do want to respond the original questions asked tho I already answered the polls.
I would say I wouldnât mind an abusive RO⌠but it very much depends. I think that the story needs to about the abuse to handle it well. If itâs just this one character you can totally miss in an otherwise unrelated world, thatâs a little⌠I think @MeltingPenguins brought up a really good point (if I interpreted what you said correctly lol)
Framing it as a romantic âoptionâ⌠when there are other ROs who are not abusive. It sort of gives this impression of âyou brought this on yourself. You could have chosen any of the other characters. You chose this.â
At least, thatâs how I worry it can be taken as. Somewhat victim blame-y. Itâs one thing to have an option to open up to someone and admit you were abused in the past (and have an option where that never happened) especially if thatâs something that affects the story and your character, itâs another for the abuse to be a current, on-going thing and presented as a choice by the player.
As for being the abuser, I really think absolutely not. Part of it is a personal reason, stemming from the common narrative in media that the abused becomes the abuser. But I also wonder why it would be necessary to the story? If youâre supposed to play an evil character, it could be handled okay (aka condemning these actions as evil) or there are other ways to convey that. If the MC isnât supposed to be inherently evil and that part is kinda disconnected from what else is happening in the story, then I think itâs just uncomfortable. Iâm not sure how to properly word this, but thereâs something about options like that attracting a certain kind of player thatâll interact with you and the community around the game.
I apologize if this sounds accusatory or anything like that, but I hope you can also understand why when I say Iâm a bit⌠weary about people who want the option to be abusers or rapists.
Iâm not sure if I conveyed my points well at all, but I probably never do, so ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
OP: As you can see, youâre going to have a hard time selling people on abuse if there are non-abuse alternatives.
My advice, for what itâs worth: treat the abusive relationship as a serious subject matter in its own right rather than as a frivolous addition to a story that doesnât need it.
Usually I donât get involved in this topicâs but I donât think my opinion on this topic is too conversational.
When it comes down to a abusive ro or the option to be abusive, I feel like as long as itâs not trying to justify it, itâs okay? I feel that as long as it isnât 50 shades of gray(the extremely hated twilight fan fiction) where they try to justify it whoâs to really say itâs wrong? I personally probably wouldnât pick it, but some people might want to pick that option. As long as it isnât about a real person(unless itâs the authour themselves.) I think putting conversational topics is okay to put in your story.If you feel that you can handle putting heavy topics in your story, then I donât think anyone can really stop you(unless your planing on submiting it.)
I think the best way to avoid it becoming to much of an issue if you still want to add the option, is by having trigger warning signs and making it serious(and heavily research the topic.)Iâm mostly speaking from an outside view and not an inside view(as I have never been in a abusive relationship) So forgive me if I seem ignorant on this topic.
Jeepers, this was a very insightful, poignant, and at times, frightening read. I apologize if what Iâm about to say (type) sounds in any way redundant and for not properly citing those who made the points (Iâm sorry, I still love you and think youâre brilliant) but I feel like I should just rehash some points and stances:
There are other ways to accurately portray realistic discord in romantic or other relationships: @rose-court mentioned financial strain among them but there are always things like distance, shifting priorities, tides of time, or just falling out of love. These are all realistic ways to demonstrate discord in romance. Iâm not sure why abuse was put forth as the way to portray this.
Some folks have mentioned various sorts of kink and thatâs all fantastic but the operative word in kink is âconsentâ. If the MC were consenting to the abuse then I could see it as some story about navigating those certain kinks or dynamics, but I understand the abuse in question as one the MC is not consenting to.
The point of prose versus interactive fiction was mentioned once or twice and thatâs a different conversation, so Iâll just tackle it from that IF perspective. I believe @rose-court also raised this question, how would player agency even be handled? Because if I was playing that game then I would just leave at the first opportunity. If so, what would the story even be? Is the entirety of the story the MC trying to leave their abuser or can the MC leave but then be hounded by the abuser?
As others have said, if you have a story in your head that you feel needs to be told, then go for it. My concern would be the motivation: are you just trying to be edgy and rock the boat? Is it meant to be inspiring or just tragic?
Iâll echo everyone prior who has stressed the importance of this topic being addressed with the utmost care, nuance, and sensibility and to finally answer the questions posted in greater detail:
Iâm not stringently opposed to the idea but among how well it was written and handled, Iâd need to know how much agency the MC would have. And of course that the abuserâs actions are clearly condemned and not glorified nor justified in any way.
As someone who has been in multiple abusive relationships, the idea of having an abusive relationship option terrifies me. I canât imagine what kind of flashbacks I would have or how I would feel.
I think that this kind of story would only work under specific conditions. Firstly, I think it would be wrong for someone who has never experienced abuse to write it. Abuse can become romanticized, and I personally donât think someone who hasnât been through it will be able to make the point they would be aiming for.
Speaking of the point of the story, why would it be written? To share your story? To release information on abuse? To educate people on what abuse can be and how to get out of an abusive situation? These would be okay, but if you are writing it because it seems cool, fun, edgy, etc., I would find it offensive. My experiences as an abused person are not story material for you to add âjust becauseâ.
Next, I would need the subject to be handled very seriously. It would be more meaningful to have a story about abuse, rather than adding it in for only one route or such. Obviously, no jokes or anything offensive about the topic. Trigger warnings would be essential, especially before the story even starts/before each option that would lead to abuse.
Finally, if youâre dead set on writing it, I have a question. Who are you writing it for? Yourself? Maybe just write it and donât post it anywhere. People who have been abused? Maybe make it less graphic. People who romanticize abuse? Donât. People who want to learn about abuse? Make it more graphic (with more warnings), and have an arc where the MC gets out of the abusive relationship and goes through the learning process themself.
A story that I think has handled abusive relationships well is A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas. If youâve read it or donât plan on reading it, Iâll explain why as a spoiler.
The main character, Feyre, falls in love with a fae named Tamlin. He starts off as a very lovable person, all throughout book one. Feyre risks her life for him, and is convinced that he loves her. Throughout the novel Tamlin shows abusive qualities, but Feyre and the reader (through her eyes) ignore it because itâs not major and heâs âperfect and lovableâ (as abusers usually appear the be at the beginning).
In the second book, Feyre and Tamlin are supposed to get married. Now, Feyre is more powerful and he hates that. He tries to control her, trap her into small places, and performs other abusive actions. But Feyre finally realizes that it isnât right, and that he had been abusing her all along.
Another character, Rhys, had been sexually abused and suffers greatly from it. We never get to look into his mind, but he talks to Feyre about it in a very heartwarming way. I would recommend reading it to get an idea of how he talks to her about it, as I found it very realistic, along with how Tamlin is portrayed.
Basically, this would be my ideal for a story. If the MC is being abused, itâs effective to have it be a slow burn as the RO gets more abusive over time, as thatâs the most realistic. If the MC talks to someone who has been abused, make it give off the same tone as Rhys and Feyreâs conversations do. I would generally stay away from having the MC be an abuser, as that can teach people that abusing others is a viable choice.
Just a heads up, you have to put each paragraph in spoiler tags or else the command automatically breaks after a linebreak.
While editing, your comment should look like this:
[spoiler]The main character, Feyre, falls in love with a fae named Tamlin. He starts off as a very lovable person, all throughout book one. Feyre risks her life for him, and is convinced that he loves her. Throughout the novel Tamlin shows abusive qualities, but Feyre and the reader (through her eyes) ignore it because itâs not major and heâs âperfect and lovableâ (as abusers usually appear the be at the beginning).[/spoiler]
[spoiler]In the second book, Feyre and Tamlin are supposed to get married. Now, Feyre is more powerful and he hates that. He tries to control her, trap her into small places, and performs other abusive actions. But Feyre finally realizes that it isnât right, and that he had been abusing her all along.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Another character, Rhys, had been sexually abused and suffers greatly from it. We never get to look into his mind, but he talks to Feyre about it in a very heartwarming way. I would recommend reading it to get an idea of how he talks to her about it, as I found it very realistic, along with how Tamlin is portrayed.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Basically, this would be my ideal for a story. If the MC is being abused, itâs effective to have it be a slow burn as the RO gets more abusive over time, as thatâs the most realistic. If the MC talks to someone who has been abused, make it give off the same tone as Rhys and Feyreâs conversations do.[/spoiler]I would generally stay away from having the MC be an abuser, as that can teach people that abusing others is a viable choice.
Alternatively, you can just put everything under a summary, like this:
[details=If youâve read it or donât plan on reading it, Iâll explain why as a spoiler.]
The main character, Feyre, falls in love with a fae named Tamlin. He starts off as a very lovable person, all throughout book one. Feyre risks her life for him, and is convinced that he loves her. Throughout the novel Tamlin shows abusive qualities, but Feyre and the reader (through her eyes) ignore it because itâs not major and heâs âperfect and lovableâ (as abusers usually appear the be at the beginning).
In the second book, Feyre and Tamlin are supposed to get married. Now, Feyre is more powerful and he hates that. He tries to control her, trap her into small places, and performs other abusive actions. But Feyre finally realizes that it isnât right, and that he had been abusing her all along.
Another character, Rhys, had been sexually abused and suffers greatly from it. We never get to look into his mind, but he talks to Feyre about it in a very heartwarming way. I would recommend reading it to get an idea of how he talks to her about it, as I found it very realistic, along with how Tamlin is portrayed.
Basically, this would be my ideal for a story. If the MC is being abused, itâs effective to have it be a slow burn as the RO gets more abusive over time, as thatâs the most realistic. If the MC talks to someone who has been abused, make it give off the same tone as Rhys and Feyreâs conversations do. I would generally stay away from having the MC be an abuser, as that can teach people that abusing others is a viable choice.
[/details]
This is the only point I disagree with (beyond that I completely agree and think you summed it up well), only because weâre specifically talking about writing. I think itd be fine for someone whos never experienced abuse first-hand (I actually think itâd be hard to even find that person, with how rampant abuse is :/)to write about it simply because thatâs what writers do. They take on the perspectives of others. That being said, they still need to do it well and they need to do research before hand.
Thatâs valid. I just compare it to cishet people writing about LGBT stories. They tend to over exaggerate or make it romantizcized or otherwise ruin a story that would do itself more justice if it was written by someone who had personally gone through the experience. There might be people out there able to do it without living it, but Iâm hesitant to read this specific people by those who havenât.
Thank you. As always, I feel a mature and frank professional-level discussion is a way we can all improve ourselves. It does take two to have a discussion and so Iâm thankful we can have one here.
I also wanted to take some time before addressing your post - digesting what is said is important before proceeding forward. Now that Iâve done this, Iâll start where your post does.
I feel there is a nuance you are missing in your analysis here.
When terrible things happen in novels readers do not naturally roll with it rather it takes the skills and abilities of the writer and his/her publishing team to keep the audience engaged and rolling with it. Iâd like to provide an example that showcases the art of writing about abusive relationships.
(Warning spoilers ahead)
Kate Elliotâs Crown of Stars seven volume series showcases an abusive relationship in each of the first four 600+ page books. In book one, a girl is forced into indentured slavery with her âMasterâ humiliating her and degrading her by several means. This is something that most people in our day and age would object to and âput the book downâ after several escalating incidents including causing a miscarriage due to physical abuse.
Yet most people do not. We as writers should be asking why.
It is my contention that Kate Elliot is using her skills (or those skills of her editor etc) to guide the reader through these abusive relationships and like an experienced conductor, the orchestra that is her story ends as a success and not failure. The reader trusts those in control of the ride because: the publisher is a AAA publisher, the author and her team are a veteran team that have proven themselves many times over and in the experience of most of their readers, the publisher has not steered them wrong before.
Furthermore, her team members most definitely tell the author what needs to be changed - an editor, a writerâs group and so many more during her writing process no doubt had a say in what works and what doesnât. In Kate Elliotâs case, this results in Daw books continuing to publish her.
This is so true but this is not all that we must take into consideration here.
First we must take into account that most HG authors are self-editing, marketing and responsible for all aspects of their IF-novel outside of the actual publishing. There are some authors (perhaps yourself) that have a large support network for feedback outside of this community, that can afford a copy-editor and that can cover most bases that AAA published novel writers like Kate Elliot has covered.
Then again, some (if not the majority of HG authors) do not. These authors are then relying on their natural talents and abilities to pull off an extremely complicated and difficult endeavor. Most of us wonât be able to conduct the orchestra without the infrastructural support some of us may have.
I am not taking this from gaming point of view, although to be blunt, developing games are closer to writing novels than most here believe. The experiences of a niche publisher and niche game developer parallel each other in more ways than they differ.
The second thing we need to take into consideration when looking at case examples is the authorâs philosophy. Kate Elliot is a veracious researcher and goes to lengths in her researching, preparation and pre-production that very few IF writers can or will do themselves.
In my opinion, the very reason Kate Elliot succeeds where others fail is because she takes the extra-ordinary steps required to show her reader the caution, the nuance to write about abusive relationships without enabling, encouraging, promoting or normalizing the abuse. Without exercising her responsibilities to her readers I am more than confident that she would not have been able to write about such relationships for multiple thousands worth of print. There are just too many landmines to do otherwise.
I agree that we have a fundamental difference of opinion on writing and I do not think we will be meeting at the twain, ever.
I want this too but I would want a little bit more structure and organization to be exercised over that library. CoG making an adult brand where more controversial topics and writing that are not always fit for mass appeal is a great first step. I hope CoG continues to develop the infrastructure to support such a diverse library but until the actual time that they do, I would want more restraint exercised than less for I think it serves the interest of the whole community (readers as well as writers but focusing on publishing writers) better than another approach would.
For those reading my second wall of text, thank you.
For those whose eyes glaze over and who hate my rambling, Iâm sorry.
I totally agree. You canât just blame the author if you find the book repulsing. Nobody is forcing you to finish the book. If you hate the book, Just take a deep breath and be chill.
Yeess, The Walking Dead!!! Someone finally mentioned it without mentioning the TV series.
Another thing I get from this thread is how much it shows who, presumably, only knows abuse from fiction, and who either experienced it or has enough empathy to see why the âitâs just fiction, chillâ approach is⌠not good.
@Boodini I donât believe you quite understandâŚthe depth of this topic.
Adding an abusive relationship as an afterthought or a sidequest is incredibly insulting to the people who have experienced it. Itâs not simply a matter of adding an RO who isnât abusive so that everyone has something in the story, itâs that abuse is a subject matter that should not be taken so lightly as to merely be an achievement in a game or story.
This, in particular, concerns me.
Abusive, controlling behavior isnât merely being a control freak, itâs systematically isolating their victim so that they have no one to turn to for help, no way of surviving on their own, creating an environment where the victim must rely entirely on their abuser. Itâs not just a girlfriend getting jealous that her boyfriend is texting a female coworker (though that is certainly an issue on its own), itâs when a âgirlfriendâ threatens bodily harm either to herself or her victim if he so much as calls his mother to wish her happy birthday, itâs when a âboyfriendâ doesnât let his victim have a job so that she has to rely on him for food and shelter.
Itâs not that your mother doesnât like it when you donât organize the cutlery drawer, itâs that you feel so afraid of putting spoons with the forks that you double, triple check every time you open it to make sure she doesnât hurt you later.
Abusive behavior isnât a quirk in a relationship or a peronâs behavior, itâs a way for abusers to hold power over their victims and it is not something that should simply be âicing on the cakeâ for a story or video game.
@pandaboi already explained why this a very unsympathetic line of thinking:
These are the kinds of lines that actual abuse victims hear all the time:
âWhy did you stay with him?â
âWhat did you ever see in her?â
âI canât believe you ever dated someone like that.â
Which are all roundabout ways of saying, âWhy did you choose this?â
Absolutely. A lot of people experience catharsis when they see something they relate to, and many people who have suffered abuse might think the same thing if they ever played a game as the victim of an abusive partner, but only if the subject matter is actually taken seriously in a way that doesnât disregard the feelings of the victim, or worse, make them feel like it was their fault (see above).
If you like, you can switch out âvictim of an abusive partnerâ for âchild of divorceâ, perhaps that can help you see that the issue at hand isnât because abusive partners are a taboo subject, but that this is a situation where you donât want to alienate the audience who can most relate by getting their experience wrong.
You can not really compare that as such.
Or, allow me to ask like this: how would you feel about a game to lets you play as a child/teenager facing such situation while the game focusses on how bad you feel, respectively play a parent neglecting if not blaming their kid over/for things?
The polls seem to speak for themselves. Most respondents would be willing to give being the abused person a try, although there are obviously some serious concerns. A good sized minority would be very vocally upset and quite probably avoid such a story as well as the author. People are more split on being the abuser, though it seems like itâs leaning towards being unpopular. Not surprising, since many people prefer to be the hero.
I think itâs clear that any game that broached this subject would have to do so with caution and an abundance of pre-warning. I donât think itâs necessarily bad when art is used as a mirror, but a lot of people use games as escapism and being surprised with misery and suffering wonât go over well. Such subjects will always be risky to pursue, and Iâm inclined to leave these types of decisions up to the individual writers.
As someone in the planning stages of my own project, this type of thread is an invaluable resource as long as everyone stays focused on the topic. Itâs given me a lot to think about.
(Edited to change a word, lest I inadvertently start a riot.)
