Yeah… At the expense of the player.

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But that’s the point, author should not be advertising a character as Romantic Option if there is no option to have romance with them. A flirt? Fling? Sure, but don’t call them an RO when there is no romance between this character and MC.

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Hiw about advertising it as doomed romance? :thinking: Or would the player then expect it can be salvaged?

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There is Doomed and then there is Doomed…

Romancing someone who is going to die for example like Thane? Do-able. Peoples want to be the last person that romance Loved…and take a piece of them to the other side.

Romancing Someone who is full of grief and tell you ‘Another life, Another Time’ with lot of regrets…like Samara? GIMME!

But this isn’t what is suggested here. From what I understand, they want something ‘Realistic’, sort of like say Mason from Wayhaven. You chase them, do all the right things, pick all the right answer. You even get the Label of Bf and GF, and then suddenly…like in real life, one morning he threw his cigarette and tell you its over. ‘He fell of love, don’t take it personally’, ‘Shit happen y’know how it is’, ‘Don’t get emotional now, we are both adult so let’s just leave it at that!’…and so on and so forth.

Where is the fun exactly in something like this? I don’t know. But I would Avoid such a ‘Romance’ at all cost, even if it mean I won’t play the game, and if I do play…I shall request a chance to Kill said ‘Romance’.

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Kinda like you were given a chance to taste a food, but they immediately take plate away as you try to eat it.

Why bother making me to taste the food if i can’t fucking eat it?

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So, Jacob? :sweat_smile:

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Thaaaaaaaaa Prize…

was that fun or what? :grin:

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I actually haven’t tried that one.

Also generally speking, I actually don’t really mind that much, if the dynamic is fun while it lasts and I’m playing a character who won’t be devastated.

Didn’t say you did, just that I can’t be sure how I feel about it if I’m not actually playing it even if I can find what happens without (because even though I don’t self-insert, I’m experiencing it through my character).

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Don’t look at me like I did his romance, ewwwwww

No way! But there is enough meme about him to fill an order or two lol

The issue with Jacob is that he is poorly written. I mean, he doesn’t even give you a Legit reply to ‘WHY YA DUMPED ME!?’, he just Shrug like ‘I though the biotic thing in ya head can let ya read mind?’, and to make it worse…when ya see him again he has a Gf and she is pregnant and ya gotta jet their asses out of there. And if you push it, all he say is '‘Guess I’m just like my father’ and I’m like ‘So…ya want a bullet in ya head? I didn’t waste bullets on him. I let him get eaten alive!’. And after that, he come back in the Citadel DLC takes care of some kids, and still act like a Douche. Granted you can Punch him at that point and he say he deserves it…

But that was just horrible…

And its horrible because a) There is no warning. and b) He doesn’t dump you. He just disappear and when you see him next he has a Gf that’s pregnant and act like ‘You should’ve known it was just a fling’. and c) and I think this is worse, is that it doesn’t fit him per se. He start off like the good guy between him and Miranda. He come off as ‘I joined cerberus cause they are doing good, so if our guy did the same I totally turn back and go home and fight the good fight’. Then you do his loyalty and everything is fine. And that’s when ya hit on him (The dialogue of femshep is gross, she come off horny like hell), and it just doesn’t fit with how he start off. It almost like whoever wrote him…took a bathroom break and some douche took over and decided to screw the previous author just for fun.

Lol Then either watch it (Get some bleach ready), or if you are brave…play it for yourself :sweat_smile:

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I’m like Beetlejuice, at times… you gotta say my name three times before I appear. :stuck_out_tongue: (especially when work has me in a slow death spiral)

Interesting thread, though. I have opinions, of course…

Long blathering about romances and ROs having preferences

I think throwing physical preferences into a RO’s setup is walking a very dangerous line, and it’s not just skin color that is a problem. Some human beings can be incredibly insecure over things other human beings can’t quite grasp, and physical attributes of all kinds can trigger those insecurities. That isn’t something you want in a game, especially one that features romance as a feature.

While some might be fine with a RO who is more difficult to romance because they prefer blonds over brunets or redheads, others would find it discriminatory or feel incredibly bad about it, like they were being forced to play the game a certain way in order to get a particular RO (even if this is something that you find in “real” life on a regular basis). That said…

I’m onboard for the idea of actions having consequences, both for the RO and for the MC, even (and especially) once you actually become a “thing.”

That said, I don’t think there should be a laundry list of things that cause the RO to become “difficult” to obtain. One or two choices–like lying or intentionally feeding the RO’s inscurities–would be fine. Simply having personality differences (introvert vs extrovert, friendly vs stoic) would not be fine. People are often attracted to those who display different characteristics than what they think they prefer, and that’s a good thing. The only one I would say could be a kicker is honest versus dishonest, because someone being a liar is a red flag for a lot of people.

Personally, I would like there to come a point in every romance where it is “locked in” and these issues won’t keep the MC and RO from being together. One thing I really love about Wayhaven is the fact that you have to lock in a romance. The MC has the chance to get to know all of them (in some respects, though it was almost like she intentionally made a couple of the romances as unappealing as humanly possibly in b1, when you had to choose), and then you pick. That, to me, is a good thing–you don’t have to worry that your MC will get dumped or that the romance was false advertising (i.e., pitched as a romance option, only to find out they aren’t obtainable, as was discussed in another thread).

But after it’s locked in, I have always wanted to see some sort of mood/status tracker. Say something happens as you mentioned above, where the MC lies to the RO or does something to make them feel insecure, then the there needs to be something to force this to be worked out or, at the very least, track the fact that the RO isn’t feeling overly trusting of the MC now and the MC is going to have to earn that trust back.

The same goes for the MC–if the RO does something to show themselves as untrustworthy, or starts treating the MC like a doormat (something I see repeatedly in these games), then instead of making the MC accept it, let the player choose how they feel about it, and have that set the current mood/status/whatever you call it. I see a lot of this already in games, where a stat is set based on some big romance moment, so it’s easy enough to use that to affect the current mood (or even have what happened be a contention point in the future, until it’s worked out, like it’s forgiven but not forgotten).

I don’t think it’s something that should be constantly back and forth, or affected by every interaction, only those events that the author knows will affect the relationship/romance and either the RO or the MC may react strongly to. It’d be a good way to help build a relationship in-game that actually feels like a relationship instead of a one-sided thing that forces the MC into the position of always letting things go or the ROs always letting things go that otherwise would’ve really bothered them.

I think one reason so many authors are reluctant to get past the “first kiss/first bang” stage in a “romance” is because they think relationships are boring or some other such thing. One solution to this is the above–track the current attitude of the MC and RO (default as positive, I would think, if they are involved!) and change some of the text accordingly. Or even add a line in the stats, something like “Bosephus is really pissed off that you flirted with that Orc two weeks ago, and it’s affecting their mood…”

I know it likely sounds like a lot, but when you consider the sheer amount of stats that are tracked already (some of which aren’t really necessary, from what I see in code diving), it wouldn’t be much more to add, since the author can choose the exact events that can affect the romance/relationship (and may pay more attention to what they write when beta readers start pointing out behavioral issues to them).

Also, just to clarify, I’m not saying the ROs should be changed. Quite the opposite. Everyone has a sticking point or two, those things that set them off and make them grudgy or angry at even those whom they care for deeply. But they can be overcome. That could be a very interesting, fun (and, dare I say it, romantic-oriented) path to add.

As for the original question about a RO rejecting my MC in favor for another character… fuck that noise, to put it bluntly. Unless it’s “spoiled” up front, I would be livid if I created a MC to play through the route, wasted hours of my time, and then found out the RO was never really an option in the first place. That’s false advertising, just like it’s false advertising when someone pitches their story as a romance but there’s no damned romance in it. You outright lied, knowing some people might purchase the game specifically for that reason that you lied about (remember the sticking point thing above? there’s one of mine…).

That’s not to say that I have a problem with some ROs being off limits. I may complain about it (cough Steel cough) but the character is what it is. Now if I hadn’t known that before FH b2 comes out, I might be miffed. But @malinryden told everyone how it is, so that’s that.

I don’t even have a problem with a RO having certain sex/relationship preferences and the MC being forced to deal with it or find another RO (as long as it’s clear up front). A RO whose love language is touch shouldn’t be forced to be with someone who will never touch them. A RO who is only comfortable with being the pursuer shouldn’t be forced to be the one who is pursued by the MC (and I would freaking kill for this one, because no one has done it yet). That kind of thing, I’m all for. But just having a character who is pitched as a RO up and dump the MC because that’s how the author wants it? Not gonna play it.

This is where I would turn green and break shit…

And don’t get me started about Jacob from ME. Ugh!! (and, might I add, that Shepard was freaking creepy when flirting with him??)

Anyway, this whole “plot” just sounds like something to intentionally get readers pissed off. Granted, some of the angst lovers might eat it up, but if you did it, then I’d highly suggest letting people know up front that it’s all angst, the RO will dump you, etc. so those who aren’t into having their MCs crapped on can just avoid it altogether.

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I always assumed it would be more like the RO making the first move instead of the MC (at least if properly flagged so, I guess, to avoid the unwanted-moves-problems), but maybe I understood wrong.

That sounds great. Although I would still want to see that if the MC does something way too over the top (say, stabs the RO in the back and leaves them to die), the RO wouldn’t be willing to work for that relationship anymore.

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Well, in a romance-oriented game, or one that is romance-focused, I’d hope that wouldn’t be an option! If it was, then I totally agree that the RO should be done with the MC. Or kill them. Either one works for me.

edit:
Hm. I just said that and thought of Defiled Hearts: Barbarian (I think that’s the name?) that I recently got hooked on, where your MC can decide to kill Marcus. For valid reasons, of course, but the more I see of Marcus, the more I freaking love him. No killing Marcus!!

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Well, it could be a romance game where the characters (or at least some of them) are supervillains! Or evil sorcerers. Or both. (Now that I said that, I would actually play that one.)

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Or a Mr and Mrs Smith type of game, where they’re trying to murder each other and having sex half the time, lol. Playing a game like that (as long as there’s a way to a happy ending, even if if your MC and RO have destroyed everything in their paths) would be a blast.

And I agree about the supervillians and evil sorcerers. That could be fun, if done correctly.

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I think the only time i was ever irritated by RO rejection is when an Ro purposely acted interested in MC and MC reciprocating only to turn around and be with another person.

If the attraction/bond wasn’t mutual then i couldn’t care any less. Like if the RO is genderlocked then it’s fine, and if they end up with other people while im not on their route, its also fine.

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The player would expect Romeo and Juliet, not ‘Your average hook up that didn’t work out’ tho.

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It depends. I’m not a fan of false advertising, but if it’s for plot reasons, I’d have to see. I mean, I get enough rejection in real life; I don’t want it in my escapism

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Like anything, it all depends on the execution. But generally speaking, I wouldn’t mind. I read stories for engaging, potentially meaningful drama with multi-layered characters with their own desires, motivations, and histories. I like realism and rejection is part of that. I want things to be interesting, not necessarily fun for the sake of escapism (not to say there’s anything wrong with that either). Romance should be no different. If a writer can pull it off, then by all means they should do it. It at least would feel different than the usual power fantasy.

The problem I find with the approach many authors take with romance options is that they’re so formulaic and predictable that it lessens the opportunity for interesting, dynamic characters in their own right. A lot of romance options don’t feel like characters, because it’s all in service of the player. Say the right things and they’re yours; they’re trophies. That doesn’t interest me. I want characters that actually feel real, can be rivals as quickly as they can be allies, and the implementation of a little more rejection in romance plots would certainty help in that regard.

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Response to @DeadButLiving ::

Deadbutliving

The problem I find with the approach many authors take with romance options is that they’re so formulaic and predictable that it lessens the opportunity for interesting, dynamic characters in their own right. A lot of romance options don’t feel like characters, because it’s all in service of the player. Say the right things and they’re yours; they’re trophies. That doesn’t interest me. I want characters that actually feel real, can be rivals as quickly as they can be allies, and the implementation of a little more rejection in romance plots would certainty help in that regard.

This, I know that by the nature of these being games and not just traditional novels that there is going to be some extent of this… but sometimes it feels as though a story writes an RO like a prize to be won before they write an interesting person that has their own feelings or opinions. I would prefer if more stories would have ROs who have core beliefs, and if you go against them then the RO won’t vibe with you. (For example, Vendetta has it so if you try to date the Hero RO and go down the Criminal Heir route, they won’t stick with you. 3/4 of the ROs won’t follow you if you take one of the paths that goes against their core beliefs.)

Response to @Dragomer :

Dragomer

To be fair, you’re kinda limited by ROs not being the focus of the story.
Though romance games have no excuse for boring ROs

I don’t know what you mean, if you are talking about my WIP, its entirely about the characters.

If you are talking more generally though, I am of the opinion that it is better to have no ROs than to have shallow ones. I would prefer something like a few flings or nothing at all in that aspect. I know that for some readers they would not play them at all though without ROs so I suppose it’s hard to say…

I just think its a larger character problem though than RO specific, because if your ROs feel underdeveloped than that is probably a bigger problem then just the ROs (since usually they get the most’ screen-time’ out of the cast)

Edit: Some of you people scare me, but at least your violent urges are aimed at the ROs and not the writer lol

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To be fair, you’re kinda limited by ROs not being the focus of the story.

Though romance games have no excuse for boring ROs