How do you feel about "Bad Endings" or 'Game Over' states

I’ve weighed in on this topic before in other threads, but I might as well do so again. In my opinion, “bad endings” are a useful storytelling tool, but only when they’re used correctly.

Note that I’m speaking independent of tragic endings here. Though I try to write my bad endings as if they were the ends to tragic story arcs, and I have written full-fledged tragic endings before, I obviously can’t put the same kind of attention into the former as I do the latter, especially considering how many bad endings I’ve written over the years.

First of all, some stories lend themselves better to having bad endings than others. Guns of Infinity is mostly a war story, and one which tries to portray the level of destruction armed conflict can inflict as honestly and as forthrightly as possible. If I decide that there are no bad endings in a story like this that while your main character can kill the designated enemy with impunity, they themselves are invincible, I am not fulfilling my storytelling objectives. In fact, I would go as far to say that any story attempting to tell a “serious” story about events or endeavours which regularly maim and kill their participants without exposing the player character to those same risks is being disrespectful to the source material at hand.

In real armed conflicts, people do not usually get back up after they’ve been shot in the head. To wave away that risk and the fear it brings is to gravely undercut any real credibility a narrative might have when it comes to commenting on such things.

But of course, some stories are power fantasies, or at least enough of power fantasies to make verisimilitude subordinate to the edification of the player and their desires, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In this case, an abrupt game over may be an efficient way of handing a player a suboptimal outcome to their decisions, but it usually isn’t the best one, since it definitively stops the player from achieving their long-term goal within the narrative. In these cases, it’s usually better to hand the player a temporary setback which allows them to adapt, recover, find their feet again, and feel all the more brave, clever, and resilient for making it to the end.

By way of comparison, Guns of Infinity has nearly fifty possible bad ends. The Cryptkeepers of Hallowford has one.

What’s just as important is how these bad endings are contextualised. In my opinion, a bad ending has to be “fair”, which is to say that an attentive player going in on their first playthrough must be able to make the decisions which lead to that bad ending with the understanding that they are choosing options which may very likely lead to a game over. This is the difference between a player realising that they’ve made a terrible mistake before they read the words, and the player running into a seemingly arbitrary wall.

The second thing to consider is how to respect the player’s time and effort. If the player spends three or four hours getting to a point in a story only to get stabbed in the gut, you want to avoid kicking them all the way back to the beginning, so they can make the same decisions over and over again so they can make a slightly different decision at the very end. At that point, most people would simply give up and do something else. If you’re going to repeatedly kick the player out of the narrative by giving them a bad end or a game over, the least you could do is add a checkpoint system to make sure they don’t have to redo the whole story to get to the point where they messed up.

A lot of this stuff I learned the hard way. The Hero of Kendrickstone didn’t have a checkpoint system, and also had an extremely lethal endgame. Sometimes I wonder how many people ended up getting frustrated and ragequitting in the last chapter.

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The series is a wonderful gift from God

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I enjoy ‘bad endings’ in the sense of ‘game over that is not ‘happily ever after’’. My favourite ending in a CoG is both a slightly early game over and a bad ending, but its narrative strength really made it stand out for me.

I’ve probably killed my first main character off in my first play through in nearly every game where that’s possible to do, but mostly those don’t stand out to me because it’s just another ‘oh your stats weren’t good enough and you died, so tragic’.

In this case, I made a choice that could have gone brilliantly or could have ended very badly, but either way it was a perfect choice for my character. It did end poorly, in a sort of glorious St. Stephen moment, but the storytelling was fabulous, and perfectly suited to my PC. Hence, it’s my favourite ending to date.

@Cataphrak Weirdly, Kendrickstone (which I very much like) is one of the few CoG/HGs where I haven’t managed to find my way to an untimely death. Hmm.

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I’ve been meaning to play it I heard it’s pretty good. House in Fata Morgana is really good if you like that thing.

Bad endings that are satisfying endings are extraordinarily difficult to pull off and as a result when someone can pull them off well I respect them so so so much as a writer. That is not an easy task and when a bad ending is pulled off successfully that is a very good sign of skill in my eyes.

That being said, I’m fairly neutral on their implementation- in such that I can’t say I’m against them completely because as said above when done right they can be superbly entertaining and interesting, however when not done well it just feels… well, incomplete. As if someone ripped the book out of my hands and told me “nah, you’re done. Doesn’t matter that you’re in the middle of the book, you’re done, pal.” Which always leaves a sour taste even when replaying.

That and I can’t help but wonder what could have been done instead. Often times the “bad endings” is where the MC dies and that’s it (and I don’t mean an early game over but more in that the ending of the entire book, the finale of the climatic battle, with everything leading up to this kind of thing- although this can also be applied to early game overs, which I’ll talk about below). I feel like this is kind of a cheap ending, most times. Unless it’s been set up before hand or made a possibility from the get-go it often feels like that’s just… the default bad ending. See, I’d love to see a bad ending where the “bad” doesn’t come from the death of the MC (or perhaps a good ending that still involves the MC not getting to see the result of their work could also be interesting). If you’re gonna have a bad ending- then get creative with it! Don’t hold yourself back from having fun with it by sticking to the “you died” idea of a bad end! A bad end could even be the MC as the sole survivor of their group of friends- the Big Bad got away and now everyone they knew and loved are gone, so the MC is resigned to a fate of wandering the hills, forever seeking out their enemy on a lonely journey no longer for salvation- but vengeance. That’s just one example of a fun twist on a bad end! And I find that the better bad ends are the ones where the writer is really having fun with them and just playing around with different ways everything can fall apart.

As for early game overs… Now those, I am fairly vehemently against. I think that what I said for bad ends especially applies to game overs. Death feels… cheap, really, and the process of replaying everything I’ve done just to fix one stat that wasn’t high enough or that one decision that, for all information given at the time, seemed like a good idea but turned out to get me killed. I’ve personally yet to see an early game over that left me feeling satisfied or like the character deserved such a thing (at least ones that aren’t joke-choices in the first few pages, I mean). And on the flip-side, I love it when authors take the choice beyond the early game-over and, again, have fun with all the ideas of what could happen. So you’ve been beaten in the firefight and you lie there, bleeding out, say your companion is also mortally wounded and you can’t save them or yourself- okay, maybe instead of putting in the game over here you have the antagonists capture the MC. Maybe the MC even gets the chance to plead for their friends survival instead of/as well as theirs, and now the MC’s wounded, has to find their friend, and escape from the bad guys HQ together without dying. Say you fail here again, but instead of getting a game-over, you have to be saved by one of your other teammates, and maybe now your friend is out of commission for a while or you’re left with an injury that prevents you from taking certain actions in the future. It changes the game, and you’re punished for your failure in some way, but it doesn’t feel like an unsatisfying end or that someone has metaphorically ripped the book from your hands. Also, you can use bad ends as branches- because maybe there’s information in the HQ that you wouldn’t have found out had you succeeded in the gunfight. I just always feel like whenever there’s a game over there’s a chance missed, a place where you could have some really cool and tense little segments of story that shift and change and really make the choices feel like they matter without entirely ending everything. But at the same time, the practical side of me knows why most people don’t do this- because it can be a lot of work. I don’t think it particularly has to be, as you could take out all the extra bits I mentioned and simply have the MC be rescued but perhaps now with the minor injury that locks a couple of actions onward. I just feel like game overs are so often missed opportunities for something a little more fun for both writer and reader.

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Right, well, you’d probably hate me then. Most of my games have some pretty negative consequences for players who make bad choices.

Well, for starters, a game can’t really be considered a game unless it has a failure state. If success is guaranteed, then there’s no game. If there’s no risk, there’s no satisfaction for doing well because it was just handed to you. It’s like the difference between being given an ice cream and getting a job, earning money, and buying that ice cream for yourself.
The first has rather temporary satisfaction that doesn’t last any longer than the prize itself does, whereas the latter gives you a deeper sense of satisfaction.
I don’t remember any of the ice creams that my parents bought me when I was a kid. All I know is I asked, received, and forgot a bit later. But I will never forget, after I had turned 18, one day I decided ‘I could really go for some cookie dough right now.’ So I got in my car, drove over to the supermarket across the street, and bought myself some cookie dough with money that I made from my job working at Walmart.
It’s not just that the ice cream tastes good, it’s that you earned it. You bought this with money that you made. That sense of pride and accomplishment is way tastier than the ice cream itself.

And if you fail, that’s part of the risk. And a lot of the time, just ‘trying your best’ doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be justly rewarded in proportion to the amount of effort you put in.
In my own games, game overs haven’t quite been implemented, but there are ‘failure states.’ Points in which you attempted to reach an objective, but due to wrong choices made, you weren’t able to succeed. Sometimes it can be as minor as not impressing a person that you really wanted to, and another time a little girl’s life literally hangs in the balance and will be horrifically ripped away before your eyes if you weren’t taking the situation seriously.
Game doesn’t end, but hopefully you walk away from those events a little bit wiser.

Sure, sometimes you don’t impress the person. Sometimes, you fail to save the little girl. You made mistakes, and it feels really cruddy.
Good! That’s how you learn! Pain is a valuable part of human growth! If there’s no pain, or at least risk of pain, then the player won’t ever get better! Not as a gamer, and not as a person!

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Part of it is probably a matter of expectations.

If you’re going to do a game where there’s a chance for choices to result in a sudden game over, establish that to the player early.

If you’re going to do a game which is fairly linear and won’t result in any sudden game overs, then you should try to avoid including any that aren’t signposted.

Some people love the dangerous game over gauntlets, other people don’t. I imagine that no one likes being surprised by them.

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That may be a genre thing; in a game meant to be comic, something that feels like a failure state might feel oddly out of place. A comic game, for example, would probably want to transform failure in more comedy, rather than feel like a failure state.

So I’m not wholly sure that game can’t be considered a game unless it has a failure state. You can fail forwards in comic genres–indeed, the genre almost demands it.

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Do you mean in one’s ending, or in general? The last few comedy games I’ve played have had several failure states, both during the game (when one fails at something), or at the end, if you don’t achieve X goal or sweep Q person off their feet. That’s still a failure state, though it’s not Gothically-inclined drowning in deep drafts of dreariness, no? Or am I misunderstanding the term?

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Hm–that’s totally true. I think I’m blurring “failure state” and “bad end,” then. I was thinking of Bad End in the sense of the game abruptly ending in an unsatisfying way in the middle, but you are quite right: you can certainly fail lots of things, including big goals in comedy.

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One of the things that Paul does really well and his infinite sea series. Is that there are several let’s call Bad Endings are and state very early in the game. But it’s not him saying f*** you. You get there from making bad choices realistic bad choices. And there is another Ender/State as well in the middle and portion of the game. If you’re not able to buy commission. At the major events where the character can die especially near the end of the game feel like tragic arcs that make fantastic stories within themselves.

I can not answer that question from the perspective of someone who writes/develops games, but I can tell you, what I feel.
And I think that the ending - bad or good, depends on what game I’m playing.
For example, in one of the last games of HG - Highlands, Deep Waters - I was very surprised that the game could have a more or less good ending! Lovecraft never did it in his books. But the tone for the bad ending was set from the very beginning, the setting of the game, its mood, everything led us to the fact that you can somewhere die.
Then we have Empyrean - a good game that just did not “click” for me. I was not interested in the characters and most of them I would like to punch in the face. It’s logical that I did not get a good ending, which I wanted, because I was too angry and did not pay attention to the details. But I was not feeling upset - because the game did not really interest me, the bad ending also did not greatly affect me.
The third example I want to take are our favorite games The Lost Heir and Choice of rebels. I must admit that I did not live to see the normal endings in them - I was killed, cut, I was dying of hunger and all that. Not that I was not invested in games - I was, but my lack of understanding of the details due to lack of knowledge of the language (English - is not my native language) led to the fact that I simply did not have time to navigate under the new conditions and, as a result, was dying. But in the case of TLH, I felt frustrated and wanted to replay it to get a normal end, because the story interested me. So I did, Repeatedly. Then I just cheated and looked at the code - and that solved all my problems. In the case of COF, I did not do this, because the characters and the story itself did not interested me. Story seems to me a little naive and simple, while the mechanics is cluttered with unnecessary realism.

As for the ending of the video games … everything is complicated. I have repeatedly cited the endings of Mass effect 3 and Life is strange, since I really believe that these games have suffered terribly because of them. Some fan theories sound more logical than what I saw on the screen. This was a weak work of the writers and nothing more. Maybe money was a factor too. However, in the games Outlast and Outlast 2 , the death of the protagonist seems quite logical and predictable - considering what we had to go through.

To summarize, I want to say that it seems to me that the basis of a good ending for the game (even if you die at the end) will be:

  1. Logic
  2. Following the setting of the game (if you write about rainbow ponies, you do not need to inject bloody zombies on the last pages of the book)
  3. Good written story and characters
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For me it’s more about the process than the ending
I’m okay when I can process with the game smoothly but only get a bad ending.I just need to find out what I did wrong and make it right(as long as it doesn’t take me making choices I don’t want to)
But when I begin to fail stats checking constantly and get confused with the choices,I know the game is not for me

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If I’m really into a game then it’s a good thing because it is sign that the game is challenging in a good way. It took me several play throughs on Sabers of Infinity and Lord of Aswick. Conversely if I’m not into the game, I might abandon it.

I would say that the real question is whether to consider these “games” first or “stories” first, and I would always go with the latter. In normal games, having game overs makes sense, since you need to be able to fail for success to mean anything. But with CoGs, I’m not trying to win, I’m trying to read the story, and arbitrary game overs go completely against this. The fact that there’s no standardised save feature for published games agrees with me: after all, does anyone really want to have to play through the entire game again just to make up for a single mistake? This isn’t a Roguelike game (which also have no save system and permadeath); those have no real plot and randomised levels, so you never have to slog over the same story again and again. If you do have game overs in your CS game, then you should always have at the very least a checkpoint system, otherwise you risk turning players completely against your game. (For example: as Krendrickstone was mentioned earlier, I probably wouldn’t hate the game as much as I do if it had had a checkpoint system. I doubt I’d like it, but it probably wouldn’t be my worst game either.)

“Bad endings” are somewhat different. I don’t particularly like them, but I certainly agree that if they’re narratively sound then they very much make sense to include.

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Well, generally speaking bad endings and game overs are sad for me. Especially bad endings as it makes me wonder if I chose another route or action, whether the ending will change too. When the game is really good, the sadness would linger in my heart and I would want to replay or want a continuation of the game. This happens usually when I take liking to a character or characters. What about game overs, they declare that the game has finished, but still sometimes I’m too stubborn to accept the fact. The overall impression of these things are that they make me sad and sometimes unsatisfied about the story plot or ending.:disappointed_relieved:

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Not a lot of Shakespeare fans on this site I see. Or classic literature in general…definitely not of science fiction or horror…

I guess it’s not surprising to see some of the opinions expressed in this thread given the state of mainstream entertainment these days, but some of us do still see the capability to generate strong emotions as a big draw of fiction, if not one of the main points. They’re not always going to be !~happy~! emotions, but the scenarios we’re exploring aren’t always meant to be. There are so, so many stories out there that would be cheapened and robbed of their power if bland feel good mush was all that was allowed.

And to get angry at choice-based fiction, where the words that give the sad feelings are options, and not at all the only ones? I guess I don’t understand that at all, because the alternative might as well be for it not to be a game at all, none of the skills or choices to matter, etc. because consequence isn’t possible no matter what.

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Moxie sits at home coming up on the final route of Nier: Automata. “hmm this sure has gotten dark, good thing Mandatory Happy Ending will be coming along soon to fix it all and impart worth to all these hours that I’ve spent exercising my privilege and leisure time playing a game…”

Edit x 1 billion : this board is weird and every possible combination of asterisk s around words does weird things lol

Here’s the thing, I don’t want interactive fiction to be a game but a story. So, naturally I don’t want game overs either. To me, choices and skills matter more when its not a game, since they define the story. In a game, they limit the story.

If you want to use asterisks freely, just use the Preformatted text button so that you can use **all** the asterisks you want to.

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