Guns of Infinity

gender-locked-male
multi-part
low-fantasy

#46977

Fundamental - forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.
Just - not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

A society that is founded on the principle of people being granted special privileges and authority based solely on their birth is fundamentally unjust.

Honestly, Baneblooded women are still placed above Baneless on the social hierarchy, and you’re trying to tell me they are the only ones whose treatment you would consider to be fundamentally unjust?

I feel like you’re underestimating the issue. When conscription teams are dragging people from their homes simply because they wouldn’t be missed, and people have to leave their lands because they can no longer afford it, you’re telling me there isn’t any ‘active oppression’ going on? And considering the war lasted for twelve years, I would assume the starvation goes deeper than “some hunger in some areas.”

Then there are of course the numerous factors that existed before the war.


#46978

I think that one sentence perfectly sums up the issue. However, @cataphrak has stated previously that both technological and social progress have been greatly retarded by the Bane. In the case of social progress, those who are at least born with the ability to sense the Bane have a real and measurable difference from the Baneless. More importantly, it is something that the Baneless cannot ever truly overcome, no matter how hard they try, and due to Banesense and Banecasting they know that those who can sense the Bane are telling the truth.

Combine all of that with those who can sense the Bane also being the upper class (Which means they get a better education, good food all of their lives, a built-in network for connections, etc.) and what you get is an aristocracy that is very firmly entrenched.

You can see this when you meet Lieutenant Lewes. If you approve of the Baneless being used as officers, your relatively egalitarian MC still thinks that means only that exceptionally capable Baneless can outperform very incapable Banebloods.


#46979

We say “solely on birth” in a negative context because birth is relatively meaningless as a measure of future potential for modern humans. This is not the case in Tierra. There is inherent advantage that birth confers to banebloods.

Our societies do on the other hand give people significant advantages based on the accumulated wealth of their families that they happen to be born into. I suppose you could argue that our society is fundamentally unjust but then I’d argue the fundamentally just society you envision is an aspiration rather than something that has ever actually existed among humans.


#46980

You’re all missing the point. The ability to sense magic has no impact on a person’s ability to govern a nation, and while (situationally) useful for a military commander, there are much more important qualities to look for.

And yes, our society is unjust, but not nearly to the extent we see in Tierra. For our societies: sure, many people are born into the top rung of society, but their parents/grandparents had to work to get themselves there. Everyone is entitled to the same basic education, (and healthcare as well in an increasing number of nations). On paper, we all have the same rights and freedoms. We have a say in who leads the country we live in, insignificant as it may be. And we all pay taxes.

This is not the case in Tierra.


#46981

Not in Kentaur my friend. They would stab you where the sun doesn’t shine if you attempted conscription and they made a killing during the Twelve Years War. It actually made Kentaur wealthier than its ever been and head and shoulders above alot of the rest of Tierra


#46982

I think you’re fundamentally underestimating how unjust our society is here. Like Tierra, we are essentially governed by a group of economic and social elites, whose accumulated capital (social and financial) goes far beyond having grandparents that “worked hard.” They’re entitled to a basic education and possibly healthcare, but why would they bother with it? They can already afford the best. Wealth and longstanding cultural mores make the difference between the average person and the average 1%-er as vast as from a baneless to a baneblood.


#46983

I know it’s not your super character but I’m proud of this one. Only lewes died.

As of the Autumn of the 613th year of the Old Imperial Era

Sir Conner d’al Redfort
Age: 29
Rank: Lieutenant-colonel
Wealth: 1970
Income: 10
Soldiering: 51%
Charisma: 60%
Intellect: 69%
Reputation: 80%
Health: 45%
Idealism: 79% Cynicism: 21%
Ruthlessness: 24% Mercy: 76%

You are a Knight of the Red, having the right to wear bane-hardened armour and wield a bane-runed sword.

Sixth Squadron, Royal Dragoons
Senior NCO: Colour-sergeant Lanzerel

Discipline: 72%
Morale: 74%
Loyalty: 70%
Strength: 73%


#46984

“Banebloodedness” is the the essential difference however that requires a different type of society. Our concept of a modern just state requires that all humans are born equal. That isn’t true in this setting. Having banebloods is essential to the survival and legitimacy of any human society in the Infiniverse, and that requires harsh enforcement of what are essentially eugenics laws. Left to their own devices the trait would be lost in a few generations. To maintain the baneblooded trait in society people who have it either have to be elevated to where it is a desirable quality or enslaved. I think the later would be more unjust.

Certainly the trait confers no special ability to govern, but neither does inherited wealth, which not coincidentally another reason why the specific banebloods in charge are governing.

Consider the Fall when everyone but .5% lost banesense. How is it that the ones who as far as we know were randomly left with the trait came to rule society? I don’t expect that it is because every human nation is full of people craving subjugation to a tiny minority of their population, right???


#46985

Mostly because of a constructed legitimacy that came out of the idea that the rest of humanity was being punished, and that only those spared were fit to rule. That was an idea that was encouraged to take root by the Takarans (since it reinforces the narrative of inherent human frailty) and is really strongest in the Northern Kingdoms (as compared to say, Kian, where it isn’t really as much of a big deal outside of the imperial succession).


#46986

This gentleman is in a similar situation to the main character when Thry get the reward for the secret mission

Kian even though being elf hitters actually have a very much Meritocracy I was at a function one or the broken one we seen Ming China.


#46987

In Kian then are the leaders and members of the other great houses baneless? Are you required to be baneblooded to be a member of the Imperial administration? Are there eugenics laws in place to prevent ensure the baneblooded trait continues to be passed on?

Did this constructed legitimacy worked 100% of the time in every society that survived the fall? I find it hard to believe that some pockets out there that happend to be highly unfortunate, and didn’t have someone who retained banesense didn’t attempt to create a society with out banebloods and ultimately failed.


#46988

Some of them, no, and yes - but only for the imperial succession.

That’s falling into the same fallacy as arguments which usually rely on the assumption of some “universal human nature”. It’s isn’t necessarily that every society in the Northern Kingdoms had this trait, only that enough of them did for it to become the norm in enough “civilised” societies in a certain region of the world to make it a near-universal convention through either cultural hegemony, or force.


#46989

How important is baneblood to the M’hidiyossi?


#46990

@Cataphrak Correct me if I’m wrong, but human society wasn’t fundementally egalitarian earlier either, was it?

It seems like those who kept baneblood and who already had or quickly acquired status and power were the ones able to become the dominant nobility.


#46991

We know what religion is like in Tierra and Antar, but what is religion like in Kian, Takara, and M’hidyossi? Also, on a semi-related not, about how long ago was the fall in human banecasting?

Lastly, I don’t know if you can answer this yet, but are there degrees of banecasting ability among the elves, as there are among humans?


#46992

Well here I run into the fact that I know a lot less about your setting than you do. So far from what I have seen I have to assume it wasn’t mere coincidence that banebloods have come to rule all human societies after The Fall. Regardless I think that baneblooded leadership is essential to not being invaded and having your shit taken by neighbors in the current “world order” of the Infiniverse. If Tierra suddenly became a utopian baneless ruled republic that would probably be their fate.


#46993

@Cataphrak You probably can’t answer this question straight-up, but is the “magic strength” part of human Banebloods genetic or not? As in, if I breed the most powerful human Banecasters together, would I keep on getting powerful Banecasters? Or is it more random than that?

Or from an in-lore perspective, do we see a correlation between great Banecasters having offspring who are also great Banecasters? Alternatively, does it happen that a pair of Banebloods with no magic ability get offspring with magical ability?

What I am trying to ask here is whether or not Tierra should start a breeding program.


#46994

Pretty much. There’s a lot of minor baneblooded houses out there, and most of them were always relatively insignificant because they didn’t have all that much wealth to start with.

Quite possibly, but that would be more the case of one country creating a transgressive political system than any decisive material advantage, especially given the level of military technology currently extant.

Of course, as the French Republic and Soviet Union have shown, sometimes, those societies still survive, though generally not in a state which hindsight would necessarily call “benign”.


#46995

What keeps the baneblooded population of Kian stable? It is a highly recessive trait. If any ancestor is baneless you are baneless.


#46996

The fact that since banebloods aren’t necessarily nobility, they aren’t expected to have the high level of living standards as they would in the Northern Kingdoms. However, they still make up a large number of the scholar/administrator class (since there is still a bias towards banebloods), which means baneblooded families still do intermarry (to encourage the propagation of a relatively valuable professional skill (and the chance of manifesting banecasting) and they tend to have more kids as well.

There’s also the fact that the Imperial House is lolheug, and consistently provides a steady supply of banebloods through its various cadet branches and subsidiary houses.