Guns of Infinity



With Trump Pence and Sessions I think it means whatever the fuck they feel like it means at any given moment.
Of course diplomatic immunity means neither Erdogan nor his bodyguards are personally liable, like I said the victims can try appealing to the ECHR as long as Turkey remains a member, but it’s a notoriously glacial process.


By the way guys, what is your take on torture? I am curious about it.

@Cataphrak, what is Tierran Royal Intelligence’s take on torture? Do they use it a lot? And what about the Takarans with their whole superiority complex? Thanks.

Honor is expensive. Just sell it out and get filthy rich!

I don’t think he will. I imagine him becoming a bitter, broken man after the loss of his whole family. But that is just my imagination working.

That is just stupid. Honestly, I get diplomatic immunity, still, it is being extended to way many people. The Iraqi ambassador’s sons almost killed a boy here in Portugal, beating him almost to death. Of course Iraq didn’t lift a finger. That is just plain ridiculous. Diplomatic immunity was supposed to prevent abuses, not allow them.


Pretty much. The Trump administration has only one (1) member who unambiguously disapproves of the use of torture, and he’s busy using both hands to rip ISIS to pieces right now.

Royal Intelligence can neither confirm or deny the use of physical compulsion in its intelligence-gathering operations.
Imperial Intelligence categorically denies the use of physical torture in any capacity, as it is outlawed under Takaran legislation.

Note that neither of those statements are a “no”.


Torture never works as a tool. Do it “right” and you’ll just get told a bunch of misinformation, aka whatever the tortured think their torturer wants to hear. At least with physical torture. Of course it’s also morally wrong, but it’s not like any of the “devout christian” politicians in the modern US GOP actually care about that.
So, torture is both ineffective and loses you your moral high ground, placing the us on the same level as tinpot dictatorships like Eritrea and North Korea.

Yep, but good luck getting the UN General Assembly to reform and re-open the Conventions on it at this point.
I think our own government does not extend it to ambassador’s and consul’s families in “safe” countries (which ironically still seem to include Trump’s US) at this point, just countries where we pertinently do not trust the native rule of law. But that decision is currently up to the individual governments and it is a well known practice of the Middle Eastern countries, Russia and North Korea in particular to stretch it to as many people as they possibly can.

That aligns perfectly with the Islamic school of jurisprudence that claims there can be no “crimes” against unbelievers. :unamused:
More seriously, yeah “diplomatic immunity” has just became a reason for young over-privileged hellspawn like that to act with complete impunity.

It is and we’re not going to do anything about it since any replacement system is just going to be abused just as hard by the countries with weak civil societies. Really the best way to get rid of it in the long run would be to ensure there are more countries with strong civil societies and middle classes and a firm domestic rule of law. Even then you’ll probably still get the occasional bit of abuse, but at least then you can try for redress in their domestic courts. Which is what I would have to do were the drunk son of say the Canadian ambassador to beat me senseless.

Perhaps the more apt comparison to how Erdogan’s bodyguards handle protestors in the US would be Sessions’ approval for more “robust” police practices.:wink:

I don’t think that at this point my mc’s honour is worth much to anyone but himself at this point.
Besides it’s not like my actually needs that much money (want is a different kind of thing than needs) but what he actually needs is enough money to put his mansion and estate back in good order and have them turn a modest profit.
Hopefully his writing will be good enough to cover most of that.


This, pretty much. It’s malicious, wasteful, and it doesn’t work in the least.
The only subjective benefit it offers is that it lets the torturer (or whoever’s giving the torturer their orders) a chance to get off on someone else’s pain.


We’ll have to name it something similar, but different enough so that it wont be sued.

Uh lets see.

Warhammer40k is like Warhammer, but in space, so…


Wait no.

Battles amongst the stars…

Star Wars?


Maybe it could be centered around a single space marine, a soldier on an alien installion. We could throw in biblical references and have it shaped like a Halo- aw screw it.


I make @idonotlikeusernames’s words mine.


The CIA officials that led the torture program maintain the purpose of the torture was not to extract the information during tourture, but to set it up as an alternative to cooperation during interrogations that were conducted not under duress. They also claim
that some information gathered in this way led to identification and corroboration of Bin Laden associates if not actionable intel directly.

I think the more important factor and basically what Mattis alluded to wasn’t that it never works, but its not worth the moral compromise it entails when “cigarettes and beer” work just as well or better.

There is also the effect torture has on the torturer and the welfare of his subordinates is often a matter of great deliberation for the Secretary.


Yah, torture is really the logical endpoint of the American fetish for violence. I mean when the MOAB was dropped Fox News showed the video to the tune of a country song. No joke, massive bomb people dying (horrible people…hopefully) but still. Not to mention if you look at the numbers of innocents typically caught in those attacks (that one was uniquely friendly fire/civilian casualty free) and no one gives a shit.
Violence in media is all well and good as a storytelling device or what have you, but it’s incredibly sketchy when a society applauds it in real life. The scariest part is that not only is torture considered totally fine when it’s used on the “barbarian” Muslims. It’s also apparently completely fine that in quite a few cases those Muslims don’t actually have a compelling amount of evidence to even justify being placed in gitmo.
I could just be over-worrying, but if a significant minority of people think protesting the abuses of Republicans and especially Trump is “supporting terrorism” and are quite happy to say off-hand that such anti-American activities need to be expelled or punished in America. It’s some scary stuff, especially considering your (conservative) American doesn’t see evidence or facts as necessary for a conviction. A long as charges were filed (unless it’s an old white guy, or a white guy in general, or a rich minority that bows at the feet of misogynists sexual assaulting white guys) than I personally know a lot of people who will take whatever the DA or media gives at face value. No questions asked, just “guilty” which probably explains a significant portion of the problem.
Long story short yah, I’m with idontlikeusernames torture is more of a crazy insane circle jerk used by a bunch of man children and wannabe soldiers. Especially considering the fact that they came up with ways to psychologically torture with a minimum of actually physical violence, i.e water boarding etc, which you have to wonder if they just had those ideas ready and raring to go or worked out the kinks on dozens of suspected terrorists.


Yeah, that was also my idea. Still, even if I don’t necessarily support it, I do understand why someone would order the torture of some terrorist who knew of an eminent attack (that is the only rational situation where I make an effort to understand). The problem (besides the huge moral problems that could hardly be ignored) is that it would probably make them spill out the truth and some more. That is the problem. Half of what torture victims say is probably a fabrication meant to please the torturer.

Good luck getting the UN to do anything. It is a needed even if broken institution. The best reflection possible of how broken our world is.


It is America. People get shot all the time. Must of the cops (sheriffs and the likes of small communities and states) don’t have the proper training, and some of the others are just way too happy to shoot someone. How the hell will more robust police practices help the US’ problems?

In the big majority of european countries the cops can’t shoot at criminals unless they shoot first. And they are trained to solve the situations without violence, or with the least violence possible. I think the most illustrative even if plain exaggerated example of the US police conduct is GTA V. You just punched someone? We will fill you with bullets, criminal bastard. It has a very “Judge Dredd” kind of feeling, even if unintentionally :grin:[quote=“idonotlikeusernames, post:40722, topic:2656”]
want is a different kind of thing than needs

Not to my MC… he wants it = I freaking needs it!!! :yum:[quote=“Cataphrak, post:40723, topic:2656”]
It’s malicious, wasteful

A good sum up. Still, in Portugal the torture of regime’s resistance was indeed used and it did produced results against the resistance parties and cells. I have read torture victims’ statements on the matter, and they all say that sooner or later breaking under torture (not only physical but also psychological, which seemed to be way worse and more effective) is almost impossible to avoid. It was just a matter of time and of the torturer’s patience and maliciousness. Strangely enough, it was usually the small gestures of kindness that broke them… the kind doctor tending for the wounds, the nice regime agent that let them sleep a bit during their shift on the sleeping deprivation torture, et cetera. And those people carry the (emotional) scars until this day. Just awful business.

It makes sense, if someone threatened me with torture I would be glad to cooperate.


True, though forgive me for having about zero compassion for torturers, irl. I’ll defend them in a court of law to the best of my abilities if called upon to do so but don’t ask me to sympathize with them. I’ll leave their mental welfare and possible rehabilitation to my colleagues over in criminology and forensic psychiatry.

Flip side of the same dirty coin, If you’re placed in a cell with several torture victims many people will do anything to avoid that same fate, but I think it will just lead to the same kind of bullshit misinformation they think their potential torturers want to hear as actually torturing them would.

I assume that POW works about the same as regular prison and perks work better at controlling inmates than making the jails progressively more awful overcrowded and instituting ever harsher “discipline” do. Of course it is not “tough on crime” and I get that for kidnap victims/sex-slaves etc it can be difficult to see their tormentors housed in Norwegian style prisons while they get turned out onto the streets or sorted into “basic” welfare. But that again says more about our commitment to victims as well as the socio-economic conditions our society fosters then it does about “justice”.
I for one wish we’d adopt the Norwegian style of corrections facilities and criminal punishment already, but no chance in hell of that so long as our “law and order” conservatives and/or the freedom party remain as huge as they are now.:unamused:

The good cop, bad cop act is basic psychology known for practically forever. Still you don’t need actual torture to apply it.

Of course my mc wants to be filthy rich, he also wants a super-cute possibly elven husband. Neither of which is going to happen since this is a @Cataphrak game.
On the other hand it’s possible he could be perfectly content with being just enough money to properly restore his mansion and estate and keep them running at a modest surplus.

Policing practices both here and in the US could use a thorough overhaul again, imho. But again not going to happen so long as the either the conservatives or the “freedom party” get anything to say about it.


[quote=“Haresus, post:40716, topic:2656, full:true”]

If Lefebvre won’t live long, then our MC (at least the one who did the secret mission) has no real reason to live much longer than him. Beyond plot armour, of course.

And since we have 3 more games/books to live, I imagine that Lefebvre has a decent shot at surviving for a while. [/quote]

I don’t think Lefebvre will survive that long. He’s a relatively minor character, and it is entirely possible to go through both games without ever meeting him. The interactions we do have with him are small. And even if we befriend him or make him an enemy, I don’t think he would stick his neck out for us or go out of his way to destroy us post-war.

His death, however, would pre-warn the MC that Khorobirit is going after everyone involved in the mission, so you could bunker down and hire extra bodyguards. Or just hide behind Lord Karol. What’s a political intrigue game without at least one assassination attempt on the main character?


It less a matter of having compassion for torturers and more about not compelling federal agents to engage in tourture as part of their duties for a number of reasons including their own mental health.


This problem, you brought to yourself.
But I didn’t you went to the Second Kharangia? Then he will not have the ransom money, because he killed Anna.


Trevor Phillips’s favourite past time.


It does enhance it. I have read testimonies where people would be physically and mentally tortured for infinite hours. Now just imagine, every single bit of your body hurts, you are bleeding, probably have a few broken bones, haven’t slept for 3 straight days, and someone walks in and starts to be nice to you. The good cop effect is highly enhance in the said situation. The strange part is, they knew that the political police agent was playing a role, still, they wouldn’t resist creating a connection with him. Psychology is a bitch. [quote=“idonotlikeusernames, post:40729, topic:2656”]
he also wants a super-cute possibly elven husband

Change husband for wife and I am right there with you. I am really sad that Cataphrak made the humans physically repugnant to elves. I want a bloody elvish wife, for christ sake. I will betray Tierra, I will murder the king, I will burn the country to the ground, if I can get a marriage with some Takaran house. :sob:[quote=“unoriginal_username, post:40730, topic:2656”]
His death, however, would pre-warn the MC that Khorobirit is going after everyone involved in the mission, so you could bunker down and hire extra bodyguards. Or just hide behind Lord Karol. What’s a political intrigue game without at least one assassination attempt on the main character?

Or just go up there and murder the bastard. He couldn’t resist a duel with me!!![quote=“cascat07, post:40731, topic:2656”]
It less a matter of having compassion for torturers and more about not compelling federal agents to engage in tourture as part of their duties for a number of reasons including their own mental health.

I thought tortures thought they were doing the right thing, how do they get traumatized by it?


Oh definitely, but the speech he gives afterwards on his way to the airport is all kinds of preachy, useless, and annoying.

Also, for my two cents on the torture thing (not that anyone asked), it’s always justified in movies and other types of media by the old “I don’t know anything, but if you slap me around for a few minutes I’ll tell you everything.” Routine, and it’s highly dangerous, because as previously stated, most people in Guantanamo Bay were innocent, because most of them were given up due to a deal cut with Afghan warlords (guess what, not exactly the most trustworthy of individuals), and in addition it was admitted that they were tortured until they released a statement saying “Yeah Iraq was guilty of 9/11, totally.” Which leads to my point of, sometimes (most of the time) when you’re slapping someone around, and they’re yelling “I don’t know!” For hours, let alone days and weeks, maybe… just maybe… they don’t actually posses the I formation you’re looking for.


Hey, maybe some hot elven maiden will have some “Round Ear Fever.” :joy::joy:


You’re assuming that humans of the Infinite Sea don’t think the same of Infinite Sea elves. I think someone else here mentioned ages ago their theory Takarans probably don’t look like Tolkien elves at all and actually look really grotesque and alien to humans. And the feeling’s of course mutual.


Bioware games however, have led me to believe that we humans are all sluts and would bang anything.