Guides for all games?

Dude, you seem absurdly entitled.
Especially with you threatening the mods etc in a ‘do what i say or you will lose’ bullsh*tty way. Seriously?

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I do remember Vendetta having the most awesome saving system I’ve yet seen in any CoG, ever. However its maintenance also seemed to be a lot of work and that save system in particular was designed for beta testing so testers could rapidly go through all the permutations and choices, which does remove a lot of the tension and uncertainty in release versions, so I see why CoG perhaps doesn’t want to do that.

I am personally in the crowd who wouldn’t mind having a save system, but as for its implementation I would rather have the current three slot save plugin that is present on many current WiP’s made standard in the release versions, so I can determine where I save rather than having to go back through every choice by spam clicking a back button 132 times.
The limited amount of save slots the “standard” plugin has also do preserve enough tension for me in most cases, but obviously I can only speak for myself.
That said if I ever do get around to writing something myself I could definitely see myself pushing more strongly for the save feature. Back button sounds like more of a chore then just implementing the save plugin, particularly if’s a re-read mode only.

Indeed, @ToddTheSquid you really do not speak for me on this issue, so do not presume you do.

The cost wouldn’t be high. The time, maybe. A basic back button would take a couple lines of code at most, and could be copy-pasted between games of the same version, if my experience is anything to go off of. One that doesn’t allow re-choosing may be a little more complicated, but overall the cost wouldn’t be much higher, if it is at all. Maybe a little more time-consuming at most.

As for all those talking about abusing back buttons, I already proposed a compromise, of a simple “re-read button” to use the term of Lys above. And I’m mildly surprised nobody else suggested it or thought of it before, to my knowledge.

I can see how some people might also take offense to me calling it anti-consumer, and compare it to cuphead and darkest dungeon, but that comparison isn’t fair in my mind. You’re comparing an arcade shooter type of game [cuphead] and a roguelike/roguelite [DD] to a choose your own adventure type game. A back button is not “easy mode”, it’s a way to re-read pages you missed.

Those calling me entitled are wrong- If I were entitled, I’d be whining about what I want specifically. Those saying I don’t speak for them are right- I never claimed to speak for everyone. But I also don’t see how having a back button takes away from your own experience. If you don’t like back buttons, don’t use it. Nobody’s forcing you to. Just continue to play the game as before, ignoring the back button exists. If you do like back buttons, the option shouldn’t be denied you. Or of course limiting back buttons so you can’t alter choices.

And no, I’m not “threatening” them, I couldn’t actually do anything even if I wanted. They won’t “lose” if they don’t listen to me, the only thing they’d lose is a customer, which ultimately doesn’t matter to them I bet. I’m just of the mindset that every customer matters, and am hoping they think the same. Basically, the “threats” you perceived were no more than words, me speaking my mind. I couldn’t do anything to them, and never said I’d do anything other than state my experience and thoughts to others. If that’s what you think of as a threat, then you’ve never experienced a true threat before.

And yes, havenstone, that was me. It’s annoying and I don’t see why it can’t be fixed with some kind of compromise. A re-read button would solve all the problems of myself and potentially others. I see a lot of you aren’t particularly averse to re-read buttons, and just that much is all I’m really asking for.

Also, I can understand that some of what I’m saying might come across as aggressive or angry or something like that, but please note that, as much as I’m annoyed by both the first impression I’m getting from this community and the issues I’m having, I am trying to be civil. I don’t intend any offense with what I say, and potentially offensive opinions are just that-
my opinions based on my experiences.

I also saw a suggestion of a “new game plus” mode somewhere, and even that could unlock the back button much like the Lifeline series of games. It doesn’t even have to be retroactively included, much as was stated earlier in the thread, but just included in future games. I’d be fine with even that much.

In short- sorry if I’ve offended anyone, or come across as entitled and angry. I’m just stating my thoughts, which others may or may not agree with to some capacity, and I am in fact trying to stay civil as much as possible. Thank you for reading this, and I hope that any future replies read at least this part before assuming I’m some raving ungrateful entitled piece of crap. Some of what I said was in the heat of the moment as well, please excuse any of that you see.

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“A couple of lines” goes to show how much you know bout coding…

Like I said, I’m a game developer myself. If I didn’t know about coding, I wouldn’t have the job that I have. @MeltingPenguins

I’m also surprised that a “re-read but not re-choose” approach hasn’t been more widely discussed on the forum. There have been some discussions that touched on it, but most people who want a back button seem keen to have the re-choose option and just focus on that. As I’ve said, the compromise you’re proposing sounds good to me, one which would improve my enjoyment too–though I’d also still be inclined to believe CoG if they replied that the time required to update hundreds of games was prohibitive.

For future reference, this is unmistakeably how you phrase a threat:

The fact that you’re actually powerless to hurt CoG, and walk it back a post later, doesn’t make your words any less a threat. It just means your threat was verbal, and largely ineffectual. You could easily have spoken your mind without phrasing anything in the form of a threat, and if you’d done so, you’d have had a friendlier reception. Just imagine all these folks agreeing with you and none of them feeling the need to grumble about your blustery tone! It would have been a whole different conversation. :slight_smile:

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Ah. That’s what they meant by a threat. No, no, I was using that to prove a point- Their games feel less like games and more like real life. Which I like, honestly. Irl, you don’t get do-overs. Even if the back button wasn’t just a re-read, I’d only use it as one until I finished the first playthrough, and maybe not even then. I didn’t state this much before because it would’ve lost some effect… though I guess it didn’t have my intended effect anyway. Sorry, mildly embarrassing there.

Anyway, thanks for being polite- I always try to be civil, but especially so when others are civil as well. :slight_smile:

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No worries. Like I said, I feel your pain. I’ve had plenty of moments where a re-read button would have been extremely helpful.

And belatedly, I agree that it would be worth considering adding it as a feature of future games, even if the cost of retrofitting old ones was deemed too high.

Alright. First. Apolgies for rudeness. You do come across as pretty entitled nevertheless. Granted yeah. Being able to reread a page might be nice at times, but too many, judging by what they say, the fact that you cant turn back is what they like about it.

As for coding. I doubt that with the CS engine itd be as easy.
You have various stories that use random factors now (heart of the house eg) and other variables.
A simple back button would not do.

I don’t see how I’m coming across as entitled, but I’m sorry if it seems that way. I understand they don’t have to listen to me, I’m just saying what I think is best, which for all I know might be incorrect. I don’t have all the information. And I understand that people like not being able to turn back. They wouldn’t lose that even if a back button were added. They could just ignore the button until they need to reread something. Nobody is forcing them to use it, just providing the option.

I’ll admit I’ve never used the engine these games use, and I know RNG is included. But the stats page has a back button which doesn’t interfere with the RNG. Maybe they could take the code for that, modify it, and use that. Or, like I and a few others said, make it so choices can’t be changed via the back button. It’s possible that the randomness is generated by a seed at the start of a new game, which would mean that any RNG would remain the same. If it’s not seed-based though, it’ll be a bit more difficult and require a local cache for the current playthrough that caches RNG results and recalls them when the page is reloaded via the back button or continuing from where the back button takes you. But that’s just my take on it, and the engine may not support that, in which case a change to the engine could be done but that’d likely be more involved.

The stats button here is iirc more of an overlay than a page itself, so it’s not a back button in that sense.

I suppose so. It doesn’t seem like much of a difference to me, but again I’ve never used this engine so I may be wrong.

Hi, @ToddTheSquid. Welcome to the community. If you want to look at the coding for a lot of works in progress, then you can view stuff like that on a site called Dashingdon.

One of the community members here was gracious enough to host a site where people can upload their works in progress there (very unofficial, but quite useful) so that players can go through them and give feedback if they want to.

So, as an example… let’s say you wanted to play this work in progress called Fief, by @jasonstevanhill, right? Once you click that, it takes you to this page: https://dashingdon.com/play/jasonstevanhill/fief/mygame/index.php?cb=70436

If you want to go behind the scenes and look at the code, just alter the URL like this:
https://dashingdon.com/play/jasonstevanhill/fief/mygame/scenes/

That will show you a list of text files which effectively holds all the code for the game. You can basically do the same thing to see the code for the other games on Dashingdon, so feel free to study to your heart’s content. :slight_smile:

For the record, you don’t sound entitled (negative connotation) to me. You just wanted to speak your mind. Everyone is entitled (positive connotation) to their opinion, and you were just speaking your peace. I personally have no problem with that. Actually, I’d like it if everyone felt more free (not less) to speak their mind without fear of offending other people. I mean, we’re all adults here right? If not, perhaps we should be (pokes moderators). I’m saying that because that’s the problem that a lot of people seem to have… they take an opinion as if it was a statement of fact. It takes just a little bit of maturity to realize that the words we’re reading are in fact opinions and not fact, so there is no need to get upset at anything. All that’s called for really is an I agree (because reasons), or I disagree (also because reasons). Simple, right?

Also, would you mind telling us a little bit about what languages you code in and what kind of games you design? I would really like to hear about that.

Mhn… as an example additional to what Carlos said. Here’s a bit from the game I’m working on:

"Eh, nothing," $!{kid_firstname} @{(gender_child_count = "plural") say| says} and @{(gender_child_count = "plural") bury| buries} ${kidtheir} nose in the menu again. You can see ${kidtheir} mouth move and ${kidtheir} brows furrow.

*choice
   #Whatever it is ${kidthey}' @{(gender_child_count = "plural") re| s} looking at, ${kidthey}'ll likely order it for the weird name alone.
      Let's hope ${kidthey} never @{(gender_child_count = "plural") discover| discovers} Surströmming... No, don't look that up now!
      *set oddball %+5
      *page_break
      *goto ordering_food1
   #Whatever it is ${kidthey}' @{(gender_child_count = "plural") re| s} looking at, ${kidthey}'ll likely order it just to try it. $!{kidthey} @{(gender_child_count = "plural") have| has} a thing for trying new things and figuring stuff out.
      That is an interesting approach.
      *set busybody %+5
      *page_break
      *goto ordering_food1

The text behind the # is a choice the player can make.
The text below is (without the * ) is what appears when you made that choice.
I have a page_break (aka a next button) here, meaning that bit of text will appear on its own page before the ‘next’ button gets the player to what’s at the label (via the *goto command which moves to a *label )
A *page_break isn’t as such necessary here, but the flavor text will (if there’s any) appear above the text at the next label.
A back button would require to do the following here:
record which choice has been picked each time one is made and then re-display the flavortext.

Which… might at best lead to a tone of additional engine operations that will cause more bugs and crashes.

Reading your post in the vein of satire or hyperbole, then it definitely takes on a different tone. However, I think it is safe to say that most people reading it initially didn’t take it that way and saw it as a ‘threat’ (raises hand I was one of them)…and it doesn’t help that I think almost everyone on this forum has seen ‘extreme’ posts where the person was really serious (Darkest Dungeon once again comes to mind).

As for being passionate about something, most people get that way with stuff they really like, and want to try and improve it. In a way, it was that same passion for liking a company which also had people running to its defense. There is a reason I was amending my initial post quite a bit, so that I didn’t try to come across as to antagonistic myself.

However, I do think it is safe to say that as @Havenstone noted, most people did agree with you in some fashion. At least on Steam, there is a way to simulate that, even if it is a bit clumsy.

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I’m only just starting out, but I know LUA, HTML, Java, and a bit of the various C languages. I plan on making FPS games, RTS games, RPGs, and possibly MMO variants of the above.

Thanks for the reference to use, I may well try my hand at making one of these and attempt to, on my own, add some kind of back button. Also, thanks for understanding that I wasn’t trying to be a jerk. I know I can seem like one sometimes, so I’m kinda used to having to explain that it wasn’t my intention. And thanks to @MeltingPenguins as well for your own explanation and example, really helps me understand. And now, even just after looking at that much, I think I understand how a back button could be done, though not how to prevent choices from being changed… it’ll come with time, I’m sure. I’ll also need to look at the code of a game with random results to see how to save them as well, but I’m certain it’s doable. I doubt it needs to keep track of choices, it just needs to keep track of the stats and variables on the previous page. Potentially every page. But like I said before, all this can be stored in the same cache that it already stores certain information in [I assume].

@Lys Yeah, I can understand that. I just wish people would be a bit more understanding without me having to take several posts to re-explain myself and defuse the anger. I’m guilty of it as well, so maybe this doesn’t mean much coming from me. I guess we’re all a little conditioned to expect the worst. XD

Also, small coincidence, I almost always name my characters in these games “Lyss”, though it references a story I wrote a long time ago. Funny, huh? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Hey @ToddTheSquid I’m one of those up the page who argued strongly for this back button feature, and played with designing it into a couple of revisions of a WIP. I completely get the argument you make, particularly on the paper page vs. digital page reading experience.

As you’ll have read further on up the thread, there are also a number of good reasons why a back button can break immersion and difficulty. I won’t repeat them, but I will say I’m a terrible save scummer, I can’t help myself, and despite any enjoyment I gain from that, I completely see why that can destroy immersion and any intended difficulty.

Just to feedback the little I’ve learned, experimenting with a back button from a choicescript coding perspective:

  • You have to create a method of recording the readers path through the story.

  • Whether that be thousands of individual variables, or a single string variable ‘choice history’ that’s partnered with a way to label pages so they can be found again, unlike a paperback, each ‘page’ exists in the ether once read, so you have to record pathing.

  • You can actually fashion a ‘go back one page’ feature quite easily, but that’s coding each following page with a ‘go back to the last *page_label’ which in my opinion isn’t efficient. But if you actually want to be able to turn back any number of pages, you have to label pages recognisably first.

  • Numbered (instead of word labelled) pages are easier to locate using a code mechanism, but then you have to design a numbering system that can accommodate the fact that a WIP evolves - you’ll want to add new pages between old ones in the future.

  • Next, you have to find a way of preventing double-counting stat changes. (Literally, if I go back, and make the same decision, I get twice the reward–or alternatively, I go back and make a different decision, making two booleans true that should never be true at the same time, like *set its_nighttime true *set its_daytime true.)

  • Then you have to create a piece of code that will remember what choices people made, like the string variable method for the page history.

Lastly, after you’ve coded your feature. You’ll have to add a preventative mechanism that stops a reader changing their choice… it will become, essentially, a reread and not a ‘do over’ feature,

because at the end of the day, no matter how longing we might be as a minority, COG has made a design decision to maintain tension in their games. If you really believe that a fingerslip mistake can ruin a game, there are several ways to write your code to prevent that ever happening to a reader (like double yes *choices for important decisions–one fingerslip is a fuckup. Two in a row is a habit.)

COG have worked hard in a low margin sector to build their market and their brand, and there are plenty of alternative interactive fiction tools available for people who really want something different.

Personally, I’d stick with it. It’s definitely worth it. You look like you’ve got more coding experience than most of us begin with and I bet you can code a great compromise. At the end I had to accept that spending so long experimenting with code really impacted the time I put into writing the story, so there’s a lesson there somewhere.

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Thank you for pointing all this out- I already have several ideas on how to make this work, and I think I’ll be working on my own WIP this month. I have a lot of ideas, and I think at least some people will like them. Just need to get started. I could go to that site Carlos listed above and cannibalize the code from various WIPs, reverse engineer it, but somehow I don’t feel right doing that. Anyone know where I can just get a list of existing functions and terms, and examples of what they do? I’ll start a new thread myself so I can do progress reports and not steal this thread any further than I already have once I start work on it.

Thanks all~ :heart:

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Whatever else is true, the issue of a back button is not in my hands at all. At all. I can’t make it happen, and AFAIK the company isn’t going to do it right now. We may. We may not. It’s 1000% above my pay grade.

Fair enough. And sorry for starting something of a very short argument here. ._.