Guenevere (WIP)

@Crepsley Exactly! I’ve seen so many interpretations for his actions, some so wildly different, yet they all could be true depending on the way you play your Guen and what you take as evidence. It’s great! I see new sides to every one of characters each time I replay.

Hahaha, other than praising @jeantown for her amazing work, showing some support for Lance was my second reason for joining this forum. I got a little worried a while back about all the talk of poisoning “Barbie”. :open_mouth:

@Verand I hope there’s room for one more!!

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@vecordias

Of course there is. Our fanclub is growing, soon we shall have the numbers to purge the Lance haters from the face of the earth! MWAHHHHH… Ahem… I mean show them how great lance is.Soon the time shall come…soon.

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She defeated her in the sense she steal her throne, in spanish defeat is not only use for battle so i dont know the word to use. maybe she steal her throne make her live miserable and wipe catholicism from her could be more exactly. Anyway from our perspective like spanish she was defeated and hated for it. She almost was wipe out from our history. In fact here many people believe bloody mary never existed at all. WHe respected a lot Elisabeth though and Victoria. The fact is even being a machist society. We have a love for women as queens the most loved king in spain history was a woman, we even have a tv show dedicated to her. Also in medieval history all the queens who ruled for a time were well loved. In fact many people dont want our king have a male baby at all the peopla want a queen, Also @jeantown is ok i wont try to kill him until almost the end nd i want be subtle and make him suffer but without him notice at all, He has to love me until his shakespeare type dead killing by his own son who is romancing her wife and step mother, …POISON OR NOT POISON THAT IS THE QUESTION :skull:

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@vecordias @Verand hands out ‘go Lance!’ hats We are on our way to becoming We Are Legion. For we are many.

I actually started playing different Guens after some of the comments, and let me tell you, it’s a real wild ride. After my Guen, I think I love playing a machinating queen the most.

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I think the attitude towards Lance depends on what kind of Guen someone plays. For some of them, he can be an almost perfect partner while others definitely can’t stand him.

@poison_mara You’re giving such excellent insights on how the Spaniards see on English history. :smiley: :thumbsup:

@Crepsley And oh so stylish B)

Isn’t it? I’ve really enjoyed every incarnation of Guen I’ve played (even the mean one!). I’d say after my Lance-mancer my favourite Guen is one that is utterly devoted to Arthur. Which is shocking! It was my first time praising his sheep idea and he was all “I knew you’d love it!” and I just… lol. They’re like the exact opposite of a power couple… It’s very entertaining, but I have to admire Arthur too for his conviction. He reminds me a little of Hiccup from How To Train Your Dragon :slight_smile:

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@Ponku
Well, “Habene” is what the dictionary gives me for Middle High German related to haven, but my German is so abysmal I can’t tell if it’s true or not. If it sounds right I’m happy.

@jeantown The impression I get (as a reader trying to be helpful and thus think of it outside my own response) is that Lancelot isn’t intentionally being a big dumb jerk - but he clearly isn’t meant to come off as entirely sympathetic if your Guen doesn’t want to be kissed, either. Forgivable, maybe, but this is far from “Nothing to forgive.”

“He’s too obsessed for his own good.”

But yay, getting to hurt Lancelot. I don’t personally want to go there, but I think this scene justifies that response getting to act the way.

So kudos and muffins for the the author.

@Crepsley As a straight guy (aka someone with no attachment to him being my kind of person) I’ve gone back and forth on him, but as relates to this take I think a lot of it is how repulsive Lancelot is to the speaker - speaking as neutrally as I can, Lance seems immature rather than aggressive about it (his attraction to Guen) if Guen has made the point of “No.” in a gentle way.

Clearly in need of someone to sit him down and make him think about it, but he’s not trying to take her against her will - he’s just oblivious to what he’s doing.

Count me as one of the neutrals in the "Poison and/or burn Barbie’ vs. “I love Lance!”.

@Elfwine

Perhaps it’s because my Guen tries to be as kind as possible to people I see lance at his best because I rarely conflict with him so he comes across as a sweet well meaning guy who is pretty immature but in a good way.( I am also a straight guy so I have no attraction to him to cloud my judgement.)

Another looong day at work… Fridays are usually the worst work days for me. But now I’m home and can finally write stuff instead of just watching the thread go by on my phone. :smile:

@GloriaRose The option to attack Lancelot was something I had planned for a long time, couldn’t wait to write, and had a blast actually writing. Poor Lance. I love my characters, but beating up on them is frighteningly fun sometimes.

Hm, yes, DoppelGuen does know Mordred’s name… it’s almost like she’s from some kind of alternate universe where, for some reason, she’s had more communication with the not-yet-born bane of Arthur’s existence… (The “fake” Gueneveres really are supposed to be potential Guens that could have existed in an alternate universe, not that the game will ever get into alternate-universe travel or anything like that, but they’re all might-have-beens… including might-have-had-more-detailed-Mordred-dreams.)

@vecordias Thank you! (: While I do try to leave Lance’s behavior open to interpretation, I personally think he’s trying to be a good person, even if he doesn’t always succeed. At the very least, he genuinely wants to be a good knight, which means helping those in need, keeping his word, and honoring his king and queen. Whether the desire to be a good knight is selfless or egotistical, or somehow a bit of both, is, I guess, up to the reader to decide.

@WulfyK If Mordred does kill Arthur, I absolutely want Guen to be able to provide essential assistance. I feel bad depriving evil Guen of a chance to do kill him herself, but perhaps engineering Arthur’s death at the hands of his own son would provide sufficient agency, and be sufficiently evil? In any case, I do actually have a plan in place right now to make it possible for Guen to double-cross Mordred in support of Arthur. I imagine that might appeal to a pragmatic Guen who’s not afraid to get her hands dirty and compromise her personal integrity for the good of the realm and/or Arthur. We’ll see if I can pull it off!

@Wonderboy That is BRILLIANT. I could alllmooost but not quite make that happen with what I have planned. I wish I could make it happen exactly the way you describe, because that would just be too awesome for words. But WulfyK is right that Guen had better get Merlin out of the way before she even thinks about undertaking that plan. Fortunately, Merin’s demise can be accomplished sooner rather than later if Guen so desires / as Mara definitely desires.

@Crepsley @Verand @vecordias Lance needs all the support he can get; that’s for sure! But you’re not alone; he does have some fans here, and also lots of them on tumblr, where I’ve seen some very heartfelt declarations of appreciation for him. A few months ago I had the odd impression that male readers seemed to like him more than female readers did, but that appears to have balanced out as far as I can tell. Anyway, I expect he’ll continue to be the most polarizing character for the rest of the series. He may have some rough times ahead, depending on what happens, so he’ll certainly be appreciative of a Guen who cares about him, whether it’s friendship or something more. And I don’t write characters I can’t love myself, so I hope maybe I can be an honorary member of the Lance fan club – on the days when I’m not writing scenes where Guen can attack him – – – no, wait, I take that back. I just realized that part of the reason I like writing the scenes where Guen can be not-nice to people is because it gives some different perspective on who they are, and I’m rather proud of Lance for how he handles Guen attacking him if she persists. So yeah, I’m a Lance fan (insofar as the author is allowed to be a fan of her own characters; idk, maybe that’s really egotistical or something?). (:

@poison_mara I never knew that people in Spain respected Elizabeth like that; I would have thought they’d hate her! That’s fascinating. But I am greatly relieved that your Guen will not come to poison me if she has to kill Arthur indirectly by means of his own son. Maybe Arthur will realize, in his dying moments, that not only has his own son killed him, but the woman he thought he loved was engineering his death all along… :cry: :cry: :cry:

One thing I do want to watch out for, though, is that I don’t want Guen to have to become Mordred’s pawn. He may start off thinking he can use her, but I definitely want to be able to turn things around so that she’s the one with the power over him. I’m still working on some of that stuff, but thinking way ahead for it.

@Elfwine I checked an etymological dictionary, and there’s a theory (unproven) that “have” and “haven” go back to the same root (in both English and German). “Habene” still sounds good to me. And it’s nice to hear a neutral take on Lancelot. I agree that he genuinely would not want to do anything against Guen’s will; he’s just having a hard time fully accepting what her will really is – but after the kiss scene, he’ll know in no uncertain terms.

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What happens if you write two characters who hate each other? That would be an odd love triangle. :smiley:

Speaking about weird relationships, will the player be able to make all four (Arthur, Lance, Morgana and Mordred) fall in love with Guen and have a relationship with her in the same playthrough?

Lol, You MUST make it possible to poison Merlin, execute @Wonderboy’s plan and make not only Arthur but all of them realize that Guen is the evil mastermind behind everything before dying.

@Verand
I can see that. I think of him as annoying because my own attitude on people is a mild version of Morgana’s (I’m not as slow to trust as she is, I just get exasperated by idiots in a similar way - if without dark magic), especially towards people like Lancelot - oddly enough I find Arthur adorable, but that’s the romantic in me (straight or not, Arthur still appeals to me as “I wish I was that cool.” and Lancelot does not) .

I think a lot why he provokes strong responses of it really does boil down to that - does Lancelot come off as “this is someone I would want to know/be?” above and beyond his behavior to Guen specifically.

@jeantown Yeah. I don’t like him, but I wanted to push that aside to see how much that was me not liking his type and how much that was actually him pushing things that shouldn’t be pushed.

On the issue of you not wanting to write people you can’t love, would it be spoiling events to come to ask how that relates to Mordred? He’s seeming like someone who would be hard to love, though that’s possibly because what we know so far is strictly his bad side.

I kind of suspect Lance functions in the player’s mind as sort of stand in for the whole High Romantic Ideal. Or at least he dies for me.

We have a guy who meets a girl - probably the most thoroughly unavailable girl alive for this particular guy. He’s is instantly smitten, and spends all of maybe a month in her company before dedicating the next three years to dramatically brooding about his forbidden and possibly unrequited infatuation.

Depending on what you imagine love is and how you believe it’s supposed to function, he’s either True Love’s Champion, or History’s Most Ridiculous Poutypants.

And I say that while admitting I do basically like the guy. If he’s going to insist on being History’s Most Ridiculous Poutypants, he’s picked about the best possible way of going about it. A bunch of useful stuff gets done, and I doubt the people whose lives he’s saved and improved really care that his motives are patently ridiculous. Plus he seems like he’d be fun to hang out with when he’s not off pining for fjords, so there’s that.

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@jeantown @Elfwine
I followed the discussion about this ‘habene’ and haven word. I am German myself and haven’t ever heard of this ‘habene’ word at all. But to be honest I strongly doubt that there is actually an existing German word meaning for it. It’s true we have the word ‘haben’ for ‘have’ but it’s never conjugated this way above… of course that’s only my opinion and might not be really helpful. >.<
But I’m curious what is the definition of ‘haven’ for english speaking people?

A place of safety of refuge.

Habene works, I suppose. The area was inhabited by a mixture of Germans and Gauls, and no one is quite sure what they actually spoke before Ceaser rolled through. Since you wanted it to sound distinctly Belgian I assume you also wanted it to have been made around that time.

Can we at least have the option to pull a Merlin on Lancelot and turn him into a Badger? I want to make him pay at the very least.

Per the dictionary:

1 : harbor, port

(and a couple other definitions unrelated to the subject)

Origin of HAVEN
Middle English, from Old English hæfen; akin to Middle High German habene harbor
First Known Use: before 12th century

@vecordias Oh my gosh, that sounds so cute. I’m going to sit down and play a very Arthuresque Guen and enjoy the two of them being trusting and wide eyed together. :smile:

@Elfwine I admit to being bias on the topic of Lancelot, since he was one of my favorite literary characters when I was a young girl, as well as having a, as I like to call it, ‘Dragon Age’ syndrome, where I get seduced by a love interest whose arc I really enjoyed. Until now all of my playthroughs of this game focused more on Guen and her ambitions rather than her personal relationship. (Except my main Guen who is 100% yes to Lance) So as of now I haven’t experienced what he’s like when you tell him no. Which I’m going to try now, since as I mentioned above I want to try a Guen who is utterly faithful to Arthur. I also suppose since Lance has gotten used to women fancying him so much, he hasn’t got the experience to act mature enough when he gets told no.

I get the feeling from the comments, though, that after this game when I tell him no, I will feel a lot like I feel for Jax Teller from Sons of Anarchy. “I love you, but sit down and shut up.”

@jeantown I don’t think it’s egotistical to like your own characters. If you didn’t like them, you might not feel like you need to put as much effort into them, so they lag back compared to the others. When I write, or create characters for games, I try to at least create a character I understand, if not like. If I understand their motivations and why they do what they do, I can work with that. But I think loving your characters, no matter what kind of people they are, is the best you can do. hands you a ‘go Lance!’ hat You are more than welcome with us. c:

I think you will. He’s not coming off as an entirely bad egg, just someone in need of the full “Sit down, shut up, and listen.” if he’s pursuing a Guen who doesn’t want to be pursued.

Nothing wrong with a little bias, though. I’ve never liked the idea that its romantic because it’s True Love because of course it is, which is how it comes off to me. But if that’s not how you see it, great. True love is better than almost anything, according The Princess Bride, and I tend to agree - just that I’m not sure how much it’s “You are the woman for me.” and how much it’s “I get so horny around you it hurts.” - traditional Guen doesn’t get nearly enough character development.

@Elfwine It’s why I’m curious to see what happens once the spell is lifted. I suppose that’s when the cat comes out of the bag and we’ll see if it was Lance only getting the warm and fuzzies in groin or in his heart, as well.

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Yeah. I suspect he does feel a certain attraction to Guen as a person, but that doesn’t answer which burned intensely enough for the spell to push him.

@WulfyK Oh, I have had entirely too much real-life experience with loving two people who hate each other. (: One of my absolute favorite things to do, as an author, is write scenes in which two characters whom I completely adore are arguing with each other, and each one has a legitimate and understandable point of view. I’ve slowed down on novel-writing since Guen took off so much, but the red oni / blue oni arguments in my novels were my favorite parts to write and reread.

Guen won’t be able to get all three of the main characters into her bed at the same time (I get asked that all the time on tumblr), because Arthur and Morgana would run away screaming from the very idea. At the moment, Morgana’s also not going to be happy if Guen tries to romance both her and Lancelot. But in part 4, a romanced Morgana can change her mind about that, and Guen can have a poly relationship with Morgana and Lance while also being in a romance with Arthur. I’m not entirely sure if/how, in that case, Guen should have a chance to explain what’s going on to Arthur, but I’ll probably let her try. (:

@Elfwine Oh, I love Mordred the way I loved Spike from Buffy when I was younger – not that Mordred is anything like Spike; he’s more of a Xanatos type, but Mordred has the sexy bad boy thing going for him (in a non-broody, non-pouty way). As for true love, I agree that the courtly love ideal, as presented in loads and loads of medieval and post-medieval literature, sometimes seems like a truly ennobling and positive thing, and sometimes seems like the most elaborate expression of dire lust I’ve ever heard. Which brings me to the next reply…

@Wonderboy Exactly!!! (: Lancelot has always been iconic of the courtly love ideal, with all of its huge complicated cultural legacy. To some people, courtly love is shallow, self-indulgent, and potentially manipulative; to others it’s a kind of religious transcendence. I’m trying to write Lancelot in a way that embodies as much of the courtly love ideal as I can, while still making him seem human. So people’s reactions to him are likely to be affected by how they feel about that ideal, and some people have very strong feelings about it.

@FinalFantasyFreak That’s good to know; thank you! (: I would hate to give something a name with an unintentional meaning in German; better if it doesn’t mean anything at all.

@Sylfaen :slight_smile: Turning Lancelot into a badger never crossed my mind, but I love it! I’m not sure he’d be all that thrown off by it, though – he’s had some crazy adventures, after all.

@Crepsley Hope the other playthroughs are interesting! (: I think you’re right that unromanced Lance in part 1 is just young enough, and sufficiently accustomed to being adored by women, that on some deep, not-the-best-part-of-himself subconscious level, he can’t quite believe that Guen wouldn’t be interested in him, even if she tells him she’s not into men, and even if he genuinely intends to respect her wishes. (And he does genuinely intend to respect her wishes; he just gets hit with a moment of weakness once he sees that she’s all right after the kidnapping.) Consciously, he doesn’t expect anything to change, but deep down inside, maybe he’s still hoping that it could. If Guen gives him the definitive “Hell no” after he kisses her, he’ll let go of that hope completely and forever, which could be a maturing experience for him in the long run. So his flaws are more evident if Guen doesn’t love him back, but I think, in the long run, being unrequited and finally accepting it may show some strength of character we haven’t seen from him yet. ::puts on ‘go Lance’ hat:: yaaaay! :grinning:

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