Guenevere (WIP)

Hosted Games Works In Progress
1823

@Elfwine Alfred sounds about right. I’ve deliberately kept it vague, but the word “soldiers” does sort of imply some kind of standing army.

and @WulfyK, I imagine Rome being the (military) model to which everybody else in my fantasy-“Europe” aspires. We’ll see later on that it’s not uncommon for noble/royal families outside of Rome to send their children there for training in military leadership (and Rome is so overwhelmingly powerful that they don’t usually view this as a potential security risk).

Britain’s financial resources and technology are significantly better off here than in real history – that’s definitely part of the fantasy and a deliberate anachronism. The size of the castle alone is outrageous for “real” fifth-century England. With this kind of storytelling, there’s an element of “Give the people what they want/expect,”’ and when most people think “medieval queen,” they’re picturing Disney… so I can either go with that or go against it, and I’m perfectly content to go with it, up to a point (not that I don’t think a more historically authentic medieval queenmaker game wouldn’t be utterly awesome). Arthurian stories are inherently fantastical, and I’m writing a fantasy.

@OtherGrimm Those are two excellent points which I’ve already added to my notes. I’m not sure what goes on in my brain sometimes… as in, why did I decide that it was important for Guen to be able choose not to escape from captivity in part 2, but it never occurred to me to let her choose not to participate in the battle in part 1? Of course she shouldn’t have to. (though I suppose, in theory, if I allow that, I might have to allow her not to fire the signal-rocket at all… and… wow, what a difference that would make… oh my. This just turned into a major revision… but Badon Hill potentially being a failure could add some interesting depth to the story… hm…)

And I’ve had a little voice in the back of my mind saying, a few times, that it would be better not to assume that once Guen and Arthur have had sex, she’s fine with it happening any time. (As in the mention of him spending the nights with her on the way to the battle in part 1, or during the three years between part 1 and part 2.) I would like to get rid of that if possible. The problem is, those are brief little transition moments, and I don’t want to turn them into a big “Why aren’t you having sex with me?” discussion, which would presumably happen. I could just cut them entirely, but I think it’s really important to specify what’s happening for a Guen who does want ongoing sex and/or romance with Arthur. So I guess I’d need to toggle them on or off ahead of time somehow, which is going to take some thought.

But once again, those are both GREAT things for me to think about, and I’m very glad you brought them up.

1824

@jeantown I’m glad I can give you stuff to think about! :slight_smile:

As it is, isn’t it still possible to ‘fail’ Badon Hill by running when you’re attacked? I know that’s an option, but I’ve never taken it to see what happens. I imagine refusing would have the same impact - that, or Arthur could just have someone else do it, and the attack wouldn’t be an issue there (since they’re going after Guen).

And I brought up the sex issue because I have an asexual Guen who might eventually break down and sleep with him once, but wouldn’t want to make it a common thing. That 's all. ^_^;

1825

As long as the fantasy stays grounded in something that could have been, as opposed to “And Arthur rode on a cybernetic unicorn” level fantastic, I’m happy.

It works better in this particular fantasy to have things stay only when it benefits the setting and/or story than to go wild with the more unrealistic elements, IMO.

1826

@Elfwine I think Arthur has more power than the Continental Congress or the Polish-Lithuanian King.

@jeantown I hope you’ll elaborate more on the political and economical structures as the game progresses.

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1827

@OtherGrimm Well, as it stands, Arthur still wins the battle if Guen fires the rocket late, just not as well. I guess I could just say that if Guen doesn’t fire it at all, Morgana eventually decides something’s gone wrong and casts the darkness spell anyway, with a result similar to the late fire… yeah, okay, maybe that wouldn’t have to be as major a revision as I thought. (:

It’s tough, sometimes, deciding whether or not to allow an opt-out. I don’t like to force players to do anything, but there’s an extent to which I kind of have to, or the plot can’t go forward. (Like how Guen has to go on the journey to Badon Hill whether she wants to or not.) I feel like, if I have an opt-out, something else interesting should happen (like if Guen doesn’t go along for the fireworks). But I agree that she shouldn’t have to fight in the battle, and I hope I can implement that without a ton of work elsewhere.

@Elfwine No cybernetic unicorns. (: Striking a balance between historical-ish elements and purely fantastical elements is tough, and part of the problem is that one person’s perfect balance is another’s immersion-breaking, inconsistent mess. Everybody has different mental pictures of what a pre-industrial world (real or imaginary) could or should look like, depending on what they’ve read and watched and learned in school. The priority for a fantasy writer, as far as I can tell, is to try to make the world internally cohesive (Tolkien’s “inner consistency of reality”), so that even if it doesn’t fit someone else’s model of what a historically-inspired fantasy world should be like, it fits its own model consistently at every turn.

@WulfyK At the moment, part 5 is slated to focus on politics and thereby set the stage for the final sequence of events in parts 6 and 7. (Guen may even be able to contribute to politics by passing out a poison apple or two.) The focus will always be on the characters and character relationships, for which political issues will be an important backdrop, but a backdrop nonetheless. Over the last couple of months I’ve been hammering out more and more exact details of the political tensions, leaders, and histories in Guen’s fantasy-Britain. My plan all along has been to layer some of that stuff back into the earlier parts of the game once I knew exactly where I was going with it. I’m having a lot of fun working out the details, and I look forward to building them into the game.

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1828

im extremely exited to be able to control the upcoming battle, my guen sent fair-boy to find Morgana and went off to lead the army against the franks , on a side note, how is the morgna guen romance going to play out once Mordred comes along, and i wonder if Aurthur will ever catch on and if so whats he going to do…on a side note… ive been having a interesting time thinking about a tactical genus guen, with a not to be laughed at side skill of swordplay, intelligent responsible and ruthless, helping raise Mordred, but at the same time… wouldnt he be a threat to her own power, even if she likes him… or as ill probably have my guen do, will protect and tutor him out of love for morgana

1829

as far as forcing them to have sex, or making it a non option while playing i never had that problem, even with the gue n who like s Arthur, you do have the option not to have sex with him so perhaps im failing to see the problemo

1830

@WulfyK Sure. But my point is that having a stronger economy doesn’t automatically mean more in taxes - unless Arthur has a superior administration to most medieval kings (even the well remembered ones), maintaining a standing army is going to be difficult, and even having one it’s going to be expensive.

I don’t want anything changed, but it really isn’t an “any king can do it” thing unless this goes into more “medieval trappings for a post-industrial world”.

@jeantown
Well, I picked something as absurd as cybernetic unicorns for a reason. It’s one thing to have “No Christianity and Goddess worship”, but that would be pretty far out there by the standards of the canon.

I agree on the general principle and have no complaints so far, I just want to state that I think for this world, earthlike is better than the Discworld, even if that world works by said law.

“It’s fantasy” doesn’t mean it is that kind of fantasy world.

1831

Arthur have his council of knights that works also as his administration, he strike trade deals with other countries, kingdoms seems to do well overall, so i don’t think that money and managing them would be too much trouble.
Also i don’t think that too many historical elements will be good here. the fact that Roman empire still exists in this world is alone changing everything what we know about politics and economy in middle ages, giving a huge room to maneuver, and not to metnion how magic influence those things. So in my opinion actually striving away from historciall middle ages in some cases may be even more “realistic” than basing the world on them to much.
I just don’t compare Guen’s world to history, but more like to Dragon Age, Disney or Lord of the Rings. And that it’s just inspired by Arthurian legends and various things from human history. And i love it that way:)

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1832

Do you have any idea how much trouble it was for historical nations in the period between the 3rd century and the 19th to raise and maintain standing armies?

"Money and management is a huge issue in this period despite any trade deals or overall prosperity - the history of the climb to what we think of as modern states is marked with constant struggles to raise revenue by whatever means available by every kingdom, even the ones seen as rich.

There’s a line between fantasy as in Katherine Kurtz’s Gwynedd and the Smurfs…The Arthurian legends are firmly on the same side of the line as the former, and at some point the Arthurian elements vanish if it’s medieval only in the sense no one is using guns or wearing tuxedos.

1833

Elfwine is right. Taxing an economy effectively is really hard, and something even many contemporary states fail at. Especially for premodern economies whose surplus production was far less than the industrial norm we’re used to, extracting enough to pay for a proper army is tough.

1834

@jason_king Your Guen’s plan sounds good! Mordred’s presence will change things a bit for everyone, but the Morgana/Guen romance will absolutely be able to continue. At the moment I’m thinking through exactly how Arthur might react to being told / finding out about Guen’s other relationships. There should be some different options (including not telling him), which can cause different reactions. I like the idea of your Guen maybe feeling divided between seeing Mordred as a potential threat, but also caring for him because he’s Morgana’s son… I hope I can make room for that kind of dynamic, because it sounds really interesting.

As far as the possibly-unwanted sex with Arthur, it’s only alluded to in a couple of transitions… all of the actual sex scenes can be refused no matter what. But I do think I need to tinker with those transitions, if possible.

@Elfwine Here’s something that maybe you and others could help me with:

Although the Frankmarch branch is now almost finished, I had a hard time writing it, and hit more burnout and blocking than I have with any other part of the story so far. I think there were a few reasons for that, but the main one is that there’s absolutely nothing in it that’s remotely connected to Arthurian legend, other than Guenevere herself. When I had no Arthurian material to maniacally adapt to my own purposes (e.g. the false Guinevere, the wound that doesn’t heal), I lost my passion.

But I really wanted Guen to be able to take a significant role in international politics, and/or be able to do some sneaking around and discovering of secrets. I just couldn’t find anything in traditional Arthurian legend that gave me anything to work with. (The Michaelsmount and Camelot branches will obviously not have this problem). The traditional legends’ version of international politics is, as far as I can tell, “Arthur conquered everything on the continent, including Rome, go Arthur, he’s the bestest.”

At this point, I’ve put way too much work (30,000 words!) into the Frankmarch branch to change it into something completely different (though I did consider scrapping it completely at one point), but I’ve vowed to myself that I won’t let that happen again, and everything I write from now on will have at least some minor connection to Arthurian tradition. I could really use some ideas for future political/economic issues.

So, here’s my question: Do you know of anywhere in the traditional (medieval and early modern) Arthurian material where economics (trade, taxes, etc.) and/or international politics (other than Arthur just conquering everybody) comes up in any sort of specific way? Because most of the stuff I’ve read is just knights running around in enchanted forests, and some big battles, and a lot of soap-opera-worthy interpersonal relationships (the latter being the reason why I chose this setting for a character-focused game), with no mention of where the money’s coming from. I’m not looking for “real” medieval history; I’m looking specifically for stuff that appears in Arthurian stories.

@Ponku You have a great understanding of what I’m trying to do with the game. (: It won’t be “dark and gritty” enough for some people, and it won’t be “realistic” or “historical” enough for some people, but there seem to be enough people who do like what I’m doing, and I’m not planning to change it. I have nothing against darker or more realistic settings – bring them on, the more games, the better! – but, as I’ve said before, that’s not what’s in my heart to write.

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1835

@Havenstone Absolutely… which might be why I’d rather dodge the issue, and just let it be a fantasy, in keeping with a lot of Arthurian legend that never mentions taxes (as far as I can tell) or how Arthur’s paying for that big Christmas feast when the Green Knight comes to visit. (:

1836

In my first playthrough, at the end of the first half of book two, Guen got the option to tell Lance she loves him before the two part for Camelot and Michaelmount. But my browser crashed during and my save code glitched, so I thought, no problem, I remember the choices I’ve made, I can do it again. Except, no matter how many times I try to get the option again, it doesn’t show. First half ends with Guen going on her way and Lance wishing her good luck, calling her ‘your majesty.’

I’ve no clue what I’ve done different. >.>

1837

@Crepsley ugh – thanks for letting me know. There was a much worse bug where an unromanced Lancelot would kiss Guen, and fixing that may have rearranged other things. The “i love you” option is only supposed to appear if the romance is flagged on (so if Guen tells him they’re just friends with benefits, it shouldn’t show up). Do you think, for your Guen, the romance should have been flagged on and wasn’t? Or do you think the option should be there even if the romance isn’t flagged on? Thanks again! (that whole scene is going to need an overhaul, sigh.)

1838

If the option is only there if Guen romances Lance, then it maybe bugged? I picked the choices I did the first time around (I only chose her skillset a little different), but no matter what I did, it never showed up again. At first I thought it was just me picking something different along the line and it altered, but him suddenly addressing her as “your majesty” seemed kind of off, so I thought I’d mention it.

I’m not savvy with coding, so I don’t know what can or can’t be done while coding the game, but perhaps Guen and Lance should get the list of different dialogue options with “Lance…I love you” greyed out unless there’s an active romance going on.

I’ll replay the game and see if the elusiveness of that option insists or if it’s just the one game I last played.

1839

Okay, the “your majesty” definitely should not be happening. It sounds like I overcompensated for the unwanted kiss issue somehow, and now too many things are being routed into the no-romance option. I’ll go through it carefully tonight and try to figure out what happened. Thanks for clarifying! (:

1840

@jeantown well the only source linking King Artur with economy that I know would be Mark Twain’s “A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur’s Court”, Chapter 33: “Sixth Century Political Economy” :smile:

Now google gave this too: “Daily Life in Arthurian Britain” by Deborah J. Shepherd

But seriously, most works set in medieval historical/fantasy settings don’t tell much about these things. If you can’t find more sources, go on using general knowledge on medieval european trade, commerce taxation etc.

As to the standing army, I tímagine it as something like this: During peace times, I think he’ll only need a relatively small royal guard composed of a rotating part of his knights whose income comes from their fiefs and estates, and likely some infantry and engeneers trained according to Roman standards, who would probably be paid the same way as all the household servants. If the order of Boudicca and other knightly orders are similar to chilvaric orders of the crusaders like the knights Templars in terms of size and structure, they would also be effectively part of a standing army.

These forces should be enough to deal with a small invasion or insurgency, and if a larger war happens, all the other knights would be called to arms, huge militias of free farmers would be raised and mercenaries recruited, they would be the bulk of the army.

1841

@jeantown Okay, I replayed the game and it seems like it wasn’t just my previous game that was affected by this bug, but this current one, as well. It goes straight to the “your majesty” page after Lance asks Guen if she knows how to steer a cart, despite him being romanced.

I’m glad I could help. I’ll keep an eye out for anything else. (there is one thing, but I’m not sure if I imagined it or if it’s an actual thing. The first time I played your game, I remember a line about Lance noticing Guen wearing the necklace he chose, after picking Guen wearing it in hopes Lance would appreciate it. I’m not sure if this was actually in the game, as I haven’t seen it again, or if I projected it in a state of excitement.)

1842

I cannot think of anything for the life of me either. I think what we’ve seen so far is very appropriate, though.

So speaking as one of people fussy over “historical” as opposed to over “dark and gritty” and so on, I like where the game is , I just it to avoid going further into fantasy - “Arthur has twenty thousand knights on duty at all times.” murders my suspension of disbelief as relates to the setting’s general verisimilitude, “Arthur has a standing army” I can rationalize based on what I know of historical quasi-professional forces in the pre-gunpowder world as long as it doesn’t get taken to extremes.

Mostly, the main thing I think with economics is that if Arthur wants to do something big - a big castle, a long term campaign (as opposed to a few weeks or months like historical medieval campaigns usually were), Roman roads rebuilt and extended, whatever - it needs to be treated as appropriately big endeavor where “all available means” are used. We don’t necessarily need to have what those means are be detailed (unless Guen is directly involved in decisions on those means on some level), just that the kingdom is going to be tightening its belt to do it.

As for diplomacy, I think that just needs your good writing to continue. It’s a lot easier to make a “and the treaty was signed because Guen was very eloquent and very logical” (summed up) seem plausible than Arthur facing a million Saxons with an army a hundred thousand men strong (the largest army in the Middle Ages an English king lead being under thirty thousand, I think, with most being infantry and archers).