Guenevere (WIP)

Hosted Games Works In Progress
1803

@JTAL Actually, in my sketched-out plans for the future, Guen can have some influence on who Lance might settle down with (if it’s not her). We shall see. (: And I would really like for Guen (and/or the reader) to get to know Bretta and Maris better. I’m rather fond of them.

Doppelpults? Oh my. :open_mouth:

@Mirabella I’m glad it worked out that way! I was hoping maybe people would think more highly of him after the second book. Out of the three main NPCs, he’s the only one who’s really been forced to undergo character development between part 1 and part 2 (Morgana and Arthur have to wait a bit longer to develop), and he won’t really be the same person afterward, even if the non-love spell gets broken.

1804

I I can’t find the link can someone help

1805

@jeantown I am looking foward to Lancelot character delopment, so many choices. Now i am quiet confused after some more playing If I want to really ruin him or not, could Lancelot possibly If it so happens that he would maybe side with Guenevere If she wanted to get rid off lets say, Arthur in the near future? Would that be even possible?

1806

@jeantown Thinking about it again, I also realized that we don’t see Lancelot really display his skills until the second book. Yeah, he got to fight in the first book’s battle, but the focus at the time was really more on what Guen was contributing. In the second game, we hear of all of his adventures abroad and all of the trophies he’s sent to Guen. After that, not only do we witness him fighting Meligaunt (and nearly winning), but he also follows Guen and rescues her. And then we’re given both the option to send him on a solo mission and reasons why he would be better than Guen on the Frankmarch mission. We don’t see evidence of his awesomeness until the second book, but once we do see it, it is a whole lot of awesomeness. Personally, I like Lance a lot more now that I got to see why he was considered the best knight ever. Guen has an actual reason to be attracted to him, and even to love him, instead of just “he’s hot and I get warm fuzzies whenever I touch him.”

1807

@anon48296871 The link should be at the end of the first post in the thread. Since the new forum has that little green box on the lower right, which can take you up to the first post, the mods have asked us to stop re-posting the links. (But if you can’t get to the first post for some reason, please let me know. I really want you to be able to play the game!)

@GloriaRose You will definitely be able to ruin Lancelot (part 6, probably?) if that’s what you want to do… but he’ll never willingly turn against Arthur. That’s not to say their friendship might not cool, or they might not have a falling-out, or Arthur might not tell Lance to go away and get out of his life – all of those things could maybe happen – but Lance will never take up arms against Arthur or actively work against him. If Guen wants to work against Arthur but not Lancelot, the wisest thing she could do would be to try to get Lancelot out of the picture entirely, because that could weaken Arthur a lot.

@Mirabella Also a good point! (: I know that a lot of people thought Lancelot seemed to be falling for Guen too quickly in part 1; I guess by part 2, we’ve had more time and evidence to prove that he’s serious. And he does get to show how competent he is, which was mostly just hinted at in part 1. I can’t wait to see what people think of him after some of the stuff that’s coming up in parts 3 and 4, and later… character development is entirely too much fun! (:

1808

This game is fantastic! It’s better than official Choice of Games, and much better than your average Hosted Game. Some of the content I’m skeptical of, for example allowing a woman (the queen, of all people) to fight in frontline combat during the middle ages. Other than a few bits like that the game is near-perfect, and some of the best characters I’ve ever seen.

I can’t even imagine how you develop characters the way you do, especially in a CYOA book. The characters in my own book are pretty one-dimensional-- more tools than anything else. It’s tough to form bonds (without annoying trivial questions) when I don’t even know if the player likes this person.

Anyway, your game is fantastic, and I can’t wait for it to be published. Keep up the great work!

Just curious, how many words long is the full game?

1809

@jeantown “Arthur might not tell Lance to go away and get out of his life” ;-; Noooooo I could never…I kind of want to see that but…nooooooooo. ;-;

@Ayzkalyn Plenty of ladies (yes, even Queens) fought in battle, front lines or not, in the middles ages or beforehand. Plus, this is a more fantasy orientated game so stuff like that wouldn’t matter even if it didn’t happen. See some here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_post-classical_warfare#5th_century

1810

@jeantown

I take it one of these fights might come if Guen sleeps with Lance (and possibly never Arthur)?

1811

The majority of those were leaders - and not necessarily even in open battle as opposed to a siege - not frontline fighters, even before we get into ignoring the nonEuropean examples (as much as this is not the Europe of history, this is not Asia or the Middle-east, either, and cultural norms do have to be weighed as much as “could it physically happen”). And that’s not even counting how listing Eleanor (Edward I’s wife) is just plain bizarre. “accompanying him on crusade” and “taking part in battle” are not the same thing…

I’m all in favor of having Guen have the option if she’s skilled and brave enough, but presenting this as if this is not an unusual if far from unique thing is a distortion of the historical record.

It would be like using Henry V as an example of a “typical English king” (in the period between 1154 and 1485).

I’m all in favor of Guen if she’s brave and skilled enough being able to fight if it gets desperate enough (If not, her being the queen is a good reason for those leading to try to keep her from endangering herself whatever the view of fighting women is), but a frontline fighter Guen represents something at least as unusual (historically) as being left handed, and probably more so.

It’s awesome that we get to see Guen be equal to or better to any of the historical figures, but we don’t need to magnify the historical role of women in positions to set a good example to salute her and them.

1812

@Elfwine

I’m not in the mood to debate this, so I’ll just say we disagree and leave it at that. I do suggest you look up more literature or more of history on this kind of subject though.

But again, regardless of what is or isn’t or what you think or I think- it’s fantasy. Christianity doesn’t even exist in this verse, nor does magic or King Arthur in real life. If Queens or women fighting on front lines is considered normal or not that odd in the game’s world, then that’s how it is. It doesn’t need to be seen as ‘unusual’ just because it may or may not have been in real life.

1 Like
1813

If you have any good recommendations showing women fighting or army leading as nothing out of the ordinary in the period between roughly 500 AD and roughly 1500 AD (I’m not fussy about exact dates, but that’s the period that the traditional Arthurian tales are loosely set in), I would be thrilled to see them.

I emphasize “nothing out of the ordinary” because we can find exceptions to just about every informal rule ever made and to most formal rules made, but that doesn’t change whether or not such a rule existed. Finding out that most female nobles had at least as much training in fighting as most people who take a few martial arts classes in the present day would be even more fascinating than a good biography on any of the individual women involved, and their lives are most certainly anything but dull.

As for the game world: I don’t know what direction Jean is taking this, and my favorite roleplaying PC is a female fighter of some variant or another (in this game, Leadership-Sword).

But if we’re going to have Guen involved - whether with Sword, Dark Magic, Light Magic, or Leadership (or more than one) - I’d like to have it acknowledged that (assuming she is recognized as the queen) that they might mind the risk of her being killed, if nothing else.

Presumably a Guen able to do so has had a chance to show that - its certainly come up for Leadership - so no one is going to be that shocked if they ever were over her personally anymore. But they may still treat her differently than Arthur, in regards to how trying to keep Arthur from “fighting more like a knight than a king” (borrowed from a description of Henry V) is acknowledged as fruitless.

1814

@Ayzkalyn Thank you! I’m delighted that you’re enjoying the game and the characters. I guess, as far as developing characters goes, I try hard to leave room for the MC, and/or the reader, to not like them, and then I try to make that a major part of the variability of the game… so rather than trying to come up with characters that people will like, I’m trying to come up with characters that people could have (and express) a range of feelings about.

word counts: 76,600 for part 1, 117,200 for scenes 1-7 of part 2. Looking at my outlines, I would guess that each part is going to be at least 200,000 words and take 12-18 months to write, so this is a huge project, but I’m a huge-project kind of person.

As for the queen-in-combat question (@Elfwine, @thesunfloweramazon), well, this is a work of fantasy. There’s a section on historical (in)accuracy under the stat screen’s “notes on the game world” button. One of the great things about writing fantasy is that the author gets to choose whatever elements of “real” history they think are worth exploring, and reject whatever elements they don’t feel like being burdened with.

Within the game world, Arthur’s participation in front-line combat has been a key part of his success, because his soldiers love him for it. That said, it’s a huge risk to the stability of the kingdom (which he acknowledges if he talks about the need for an heir). I imagine there are plenty of older knights and nobles shaking their heads unhappily over his behavior, but he’s ignoring them, and the fact is, he wins battles. Guen on the front lines would be viewed as sharing the same advantages and the same risks – or slightly less of a risk, since she’s replaceable and the Pendragon bloodline is not.

(By the way, I’m kind of surprised that no one’s called into question the “accuracy” of Arthur and others having apparently standing armies with professional soldiers; I’m pretty sure that’s not 100% “period.”)

@FoxalypticWorld Yeah, I’d say that’s a strong possibility, depending on how Arthur finds out about it. (: To be honest, I’m still mapping out the range of reactions Arthur might have if he finds out, trying to see what will and won’t work in terms of the long-term plot, so I’m not totally sure what will happen.

2 Likes
1815

I admit that part of it for me has been me overlooking it.

But my rationalization there is that Arthur has something like Alfred the Great’s fyrd plan - technically that’s 9th century, but it’s not as if the basics of the economy are radically different.

“Half his warriors under arms, half at home” at any time would amount to as close to a professional force as the description in the story is implying, IMO.

1816

Regarding the topic of Guen participating in the battle - I’m not sure why I didn’t think of this earlier, but maybe give her the option of NOT helping out, and simply watching at a distance? That way she’s not forced into participating.

Also, one other suggestion that comes to mind. The game assumes that, if Guen ever sleeps with Arthur, she’s fine with doing so from that point on. Maybe allow for options to refuse him, even if she had given in before? This is mostly for Part I, but still perhaps something to keep in mind.

1817

I think the game states that the vast majority of the army are men, Guen, Sir Bretta and Sir Maris are the only women fighters in the army. During the battle of Badon Hill she’s well guarded by the two bodyguards if she participates in the first skirmish, and on the next day she’s given the apparently less dangerous mission to launch the signal rocket and doesn’t fight with the main force.

However, since both several posters here and, as you said, several NPCs think this she acts too bold, you could add a scene where some adviser tells Arthur and Guen to not to put themselves at risk that much and give Guen a choice to follow this advice or reject it.

I don’t think that a standing army is too unrealistic. The Roman legions were such an army, and in a world where the Roman empire still exists, it doesn’t look odd that a smaller kingdom has one too.

1818

The problem is that Rome had a much better developed ability to draw on the money and manpower to maintain a standing army than the West would see again for centuries. Standing armies are huge state expenses up to at least the 19th century.

I think it can be rationalized to a point, but it shouldn’t be treated as if it wouldn’t take some good organization to have even the basics.

1819

I had the impression that Britain’s economy and technology in this game are better off than in real history and they can afford at least a standing royal guard.

1820

“Economy” is less the issue than “ability to raise money” on the part of the state.

The state still needs reliable, and considerable, income.

1821

Aren’t taxes exactly that kind of income? Better economy = more tax money.

1822

I point you to the Continental Congress in the American Revolution.

Or the limited powers of the king in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Having a reasonably good economy doesn’t mean that the taxation system necessary to draw on that effectively exists.